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Considering everything, the posts listed below give realistic, accurate, pragmatic, doable, intelligent, and long-term strategies and policies to really improve APS and other urban (or diverse suburban) districts:
Some fabulous posts above.
As usual, you hit the nail directly on the head...
Many of the posters have already discussed this in various degrees of detail. But the answer is really very simple. To ask “how to really (and continuously) improve low-performing APS schools” is really to ask “how to get educated, middle-class parents to send their kids there to balance out the haves and have nots”. That is really all we need.
So the real question is, how to make that happen. It’s like the chicken and the egg. Parents won’t send their kids to APS schools unless they are top-notch, but they will NEVER be top-notch until they send their kids there. And nearly every other option weakens or indirectly damages the neighborhood schools even more.
I mentioned financial incentives (perhaps in conjunction with the city’s housing push) for families who would do this in groups. But the charters are almost all about perception and clientele. If the population of KIPP or Drew (which is still largely low income) attended Washington HS with the current Washington students, I think the performance would be comparable. I mention this all the time in regard to Jackson HS because it happened and it is true. I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t see it for myself.
At the end of the day, I think parents just assume that poor black people in the same building as their kids would harm or bring them down, when, in fact, the opposite is true. A rising tide lifts all boats. But often because of preconceived prejudices, many parents are scared to even fathom this option — which IMO is the best and simplest solution.
The whole problem with this theory is that you are hoping to take some certain point in time at a given demographic and socioeconomic blend that is seen as beneficial to all, and freeze it there. Like you said, at some point along a trajectory of school improvement, those schools become a "viable option" for stable, involved, well-educated households without incentives. You'd likely see continued improvement from there as the demographics continue to change.
At that point, have you really "fixed the schools", or just turned over their populations? Large numbers of those families and kids who attended a struggling elementary school are still "out there" a decade later once it's turned the corner. . . maybe just in a different district. In a perfect world, yeah you'd be able to uplift and improve schools without it resulting in displacement of already marginalized residents. But let's be honest about what actually happens: over time like seeks out like, those with the resources to optimally position themselves and their offspring for success will continue to do just that.
The problem with a question like "What would it take to REALLY improve Atlanta Public Schools across the board" is that the answers that don't involve the eventual displacement of the residents around those failing schools are things like "eliminate generational poverty".
Grady struggles? When we add these charters, what happens to the currently existing underenrolled and underfunded traditional schools? If you really MUST have charters, why not have the charter take over the existing schools?
I can tell you crazy Charter school stories that would rival any inner-city traditional APS public school...
Urban schools across the country struggle. I was only trying to point out that expecting a school like Grady to lead the state isn't reasonable or fair.
The root of APS's problems is the district office, and the key to a turn around is to limit their control of the local school. Charters or magnet schools are the key to side stepping the APS bureaucracy. APS's head count needs to be cut in half and those salaries need to be moved to the schools. More teachers, more para pros, more counselors, etc.
Also, I agree that charter schools are often bad in the long run. I believe the key is to have rules that insure the school will work for the community instead of being a publicly funded private school. My preferred method is to take over under performing schools and install a charter school that has to enroll half their students from the old school boundary. Once this school is successful, replicate with the assistant principal and some of the staff at a new location. Lather, rinse, repeat. This starts the change by giving middle class families a way to stay in the City instead of fleeing to a suburb.
Many of the posters have already discussed this in various degrees of detail. But the answer is really very simple. To ask “how to really (and continuously) improve low-performing APS schools” is really to ask “how to get educated, middle-class parents to send their kids there to balance out the haves and have nots”. That is really all we need.
So the real question is, how to make that happen. It’s like the chicken and the egg. Parents won’t send their kids to APS schools unless they are top-notch, but they will NEVER be top-notch until they send their kids there. And nearly every other option weakens or indirectly damages the neighborhood schools even more.
I mentioned financial incentives (perhaps in conjunction with the city’s housing push) for families who would do this in groups. But the charters are almost all about perception and clientele. If the population of KIPP or Drew (which is still largely low income) attended Washington HS with the current Washington students, I think the performance would be comparable. I mention this all the time in regard to Jackson HS because it happened and it is true. I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t see it for myself.
At the end of the day, I think parents just assume that poor black people in the same building as their kids would harm or bring them down, when, in fact, the opposite is true. A rising tide lifts all boats. But often because of preconceived prejudices, many parents are scared to even fathom this option — which IMO is the best and simplest solution.
The demographics of the city are shifting massively. Will be interesting to see the demographics in 2020. This can and will impact APS. The problem is APS has been doing the same thing for 40 years and refusing to change processes that simply don't work. It is like the guy that keeps sticking his fingers in the Tiger cage and getting bit. Why keep repeating the same processes that have failed over and over?
The whole problem with this theory is that you are hoping to take some certain point in time at a given demographic and socioeconomic blend that is seen as beneficial to all, and freeze it there. Like you said, at some point along a trajectory of school improvement, those schools become a "viable option" for stable, involved, well-educated households without incentives. You'd likely see continued improvement from there as the demographics continue to change.
At that point, have you really "fixed the schools", or just turned over their populations? Large numbers of those families and kids who attended a struggling elementary school are still "out there" a decade later once it's turned the corner. . . maybe just in a different district. In a perfect world, yeah you'd be able to uplift and improve schools without it resulting in displacement of already marginalized residents. But let's be honest about what actually happens: over time like seeks out like, those with the resources to optimally position themselves and their offspring for success will continue to do just that.
The problem with a question like "What would it take to REALLY improve Atlanta Public Schools across the board" is that the answers that don't involve the eventual displacement of the residents around those failing schools are things like "eliminate generational poverty".
I think once the schools are viable options, parents would no longer need the incentives. But we have to start somewhere. How else can we break the myths if no one is willing to look inside? What I don’t think you understand is that most APS schools are severely underenrolled. Nobody has to be displaced. Jackson went from less than 0% white to 10% white in 5 years and the scores, performance, and reputation have increased tremendously. Even KIPP, which is all black, has a relatively large number of active middle class parents with the knowledge, resources, and wherewithal to advocate for things that poor families cannot. Therefore, everyone gains.
It’s not a zero/sum game. The poor families at Brown or Washington would still be there, but have far more opportunities available to them because of the interest and investment of the few higher educated parents/students, thus attracting more educated parents/students. It’s like a snowball effect. If the entire population of KIPP collegiate and Drew Charter’s senior academy were all at Washington with their current enrollment, it still would not be at capacity, but i bet it would be one if the top schools in APS. You are talking like these are abstract theories. These things can/have actually happened. Urban public Atlanta schools can turn around. And in over 15 years in education, unless everybody’s hiring Joe Clark, this is the only way that I have ever seen it work.
Urban schools across the country struggle. I was only trying to point out that expecting a school like Grady to lead the state isn't reasonable or fair.
Fair enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown_dog_us
The root of APS's problems is the district office, and the key to a turn around is to limit their control of the local school. Charters or magnet schools are the key to side stepping the APS bureaucracy. Hey
I disagree with this point though. Since Carstarphen has been in, APS has relinquished unprecedented local control to the school level. That’s what GO Teams are for. It’s just the South and West sides don’t really know how to work them to their benefit like the north and east. Even financial control has been given to the school level. 10 years ago, you would’ve been 100% correct. But since the cheating scandal, APS is no longer a band of shady bureaucrats. At least no where near like before...
And don’t sleep on the antiquated bureaucracies at some of the charters too.
Pryor to the "middle school conversion" beginning in the 1970's through the 1980's, Atlanta Public Schools NEVER had ANY type of "middle transition schools", not "Junior Highs nor "Middle Schools". Before, even when my mother attended school in Southwest Atlanta in the late 1940's - the late 1950's and my in-laws in Southeast Atlanta in the 1960's and early 1970's, there were ONLY elementary schools (K-7th) and high schools (8th-12th). Both my mother (Brown High class of 1959) and my in-laws (Fulton High classes of 1972 and 1974) thought that Clayton County Schools with their "junior highs" were just weird!
Fun fact; Coan MS was the first middle school in the state.
The demographics of the city are shifting massively. Will be interesting to see the demographics in 2020. This can and will impact APS. The problem is APS has been doing the same thing for 40 years and refusing to change processes that simply don't work. It is like the guy that keeps sticking his fingers in the Tiger cage and getting bit. Why keep repeating the same processes that have failed over and over?
I agree about demographic shift, but what are they doing over and over again? During my time at APS, the saying has always been “parents trump everything”. Ask anyone from North Atlanta, Grady, or Jackson. If enough organized parents joined forces, they could get whatever they want. It’s just that parents at the school in question are nowhere near organized and in many cases, just trying to make ends meet. I think APS can do well if a strong groups of parents demanded what exactly and specifically they want now and into the future...
I disagree with this point though. Since Carstarphen has been in, APS has relinquished unprecedented local control to the school level. That’s what GO Teams are for. It’s just the South and West sides don’t really know how to work them to their benefit like the north and east. Even financial control has been given to the school level. 10 years ago, you would’ve been 100% correct. But since the cheating scandal, APS is no longer a band of shady bureaucrats. At least no where near like before...
I've seen, and so have you, countless plans from the district that end up being all talk. Maybe this one is for real. If so, I'll sing their praises.
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