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Also, speaking of Texas (and Dallas, in particular), I like what the State of Texas did when they reconstructed Interstate 635 across the north side of Dallas a few years ago.
The State of Texas basically reconstructed Interstate 635 as a double-decked superhighway. But they built the lower-level as a below-grade express toll road (with variable tolls that go up and down with the level of traffic on the road) and rebuilt the un-tolled general-purpose lanes as a surface-level/slightly above-grade freeway that is actually elevated above the below-grade express toll lanes.
I think that rebuilding at least the Top End (if not the top half) of the Interstate 285 Perimeter as a double-decked superhighway with un-tolled general purpose lanes rebuilt above below-grade variably-tolled express lanes and a *very* high-capacity regional rail transit line running parallel to the I-285 Top End Perimeter corridor at least between the I-75/I-285 Northwest Cobb Cloverleaf and I-85/I-285 Northeast Spaghetti Junction.
Because of the impossibility of a Northern Arc and/or Outer Perimeter superhighway being built as an attempt to take much through traffic off of the I-285 Perimeter (particularly off of the Top End of the I-285 Perimeter), a below-grade double-decking of the Top End and/or Top Half of the I-285 Perimeter with a very high-capacity rail transit line added to the Top End Perimeter corridor likely could be one idea that potentially could greatly help to provide the extra transportation capacity needed for an area with growing traffic volumes like the Top End I-285 Perimeter corridor.
The I-635 reconstruction or the "I-635 LBJ TEXpress" as it is called (which cost $2.7 billion and took over four years to complete) did not have a high-capacity transit component directly included as part of the project.
But because of the different politics of the Atlanta area, as well as also because of the lack of a viable alternative for east-west regional travel north of the I-285 Top End Perimeter, such a project should have a very high-capacity rail transit line included as a key part of it.
Here is a link to a video showing travel through the I-635 LBJ TEXpress lanes project across North Dallas after it was recently completed:
He understands it. Most people don't, especially people who use the term.
And he's right. Its like Houston metro's ad (which was about transit, not roads). "What if we didn't build it and they came anyway?"
Here's the likely reality. If Atlanta continues on its present course, jobs will start to gravitate more out to the suburbs. And more and more of jobs will be dispersed in a way that makes it impossible to serve with mass transit.
I liked the quote from a Texas transportation engineer. Rough quote-- "What we are doing <continually building more freeways> is not scalable. We need alternatives. But we will continue to build as much as we can."
Then why are we discussing population growth? Population growth is a result of the economics of this region and has nothing to do with induced demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Here's the likely reality. If Atlanta continues on its present course, jobs will start to gravitate more out to the suburbs. And more and more of jobs will be dispersed in a way that makes it impossible to serve with mass transit.
Welcome to Atlanta of the past 50 years.
Currently the opposite is actually happening. Jobs are gravitating back to the center where alternatives actually already exist and those alternatives are being expanded. And by the way its not enough to just build alternatives. We have to develop in a way that allows people to utilize those alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
I liked the quote from a Texas transportation engineer. Rough quote-- "What we are doing <continually building more freeways> is not scalable. We need alternatives. But we will continue to build as much as we can."
If Texas can get this then there may actually be hope for GDOT.
Welcome to Atlanta of the past 50 years. The opposite actually happening. Job are gravitating back to the center where alternatives actually already exist and those alternatives are being expanded.
Maybe there's a missed word leading me to misunderstand your post, but in what world have jobs been gravitating back to the center for 50 years? Maybe in the last few years, but not the last 50. And the alternatives have existed in town for at least 40 years.
Quote:
If Texas can get this then there may actually be hope for GDOT.
Well, the guys from Texas does say that they need alternatives, but we are going to build as many freeways as we can. GDOT takes mostly an opposite approach: do very little outside of a few tolled lanes.
I'm concerned about it all because the way the US politicizes infrastructure is scary. Our bridges, dams, pipes underground, etc., all need to be addressed.
I agree. What happened to that stimulus money - where did it go?
My first experience with spaghetti junction was in Chicago - 1964. Today it involves three major expressways converging - the Dan Ryan (I57), the Kennedy (I90/94) & the Eisenhower (I290). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Byrne_Interchange
Here's the likely reality. If Atlanta continues on its present course, jobs will start to gravitate more out to the suburbs. And more and more of jobs will be dispersed in a way that makes it impossible to serve with mass transit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue
Welcome to Atlanta of the past 50 years. The opposite actually happening. Job are gravitating back to the center where alternatives actually already exist and those alternatives are being expanded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Maybe there's a missed word leading me to misunderstand your post, but in what world have jobs been gravitating back to the center for 50 years? Maybe in the last few years, but not the last 50. And the alternatives have existed in town for at least 40 years.
The way that I read what J2rescue said was that jobs have been gravitating towards the suburbs for the past 50 years and have starting gravitating back to the center of town in recent years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue
If Texas can get this then there may actually be hope for GDOT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Well, the guys from Texas does say that they need alternatives, but we are going to build as many freeways as we can. GDOT takes mostly an opposite approach: do very little outside of a few tolled lanes.
GDOT (Georgia Department of Transportation) has been politically restricted in what they can do inside of the Atlanta metropolitan area/region (as well as in the Blue Ridge/Southern Appalachian mountains and foothill region of North Georgia north of Atlanta) since the defeat of the publicly unpopular Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway proposal back in 2002.
But outside of the Atlanta metro and North Georgia Blue Ridge/Southern Appalachian mountain/foothills regions, GDOT actually has executed a very significant number of roadway expansions through rural areas where local opposition to large-scale road construction projects often may be significantly less than in areas like metro Atlanta and/or the North Georgia mountains and foothills.
Then why are we discussing population growth? Population growth is a result of the economics of this region and has nothing to do with induced demand.
Welcome to Atlanta of the past 50 years.
Currently the opposite is actually happening. Jobs are gravitating back to the center where alternatives actually already exist and those alternatives are being expanded. And by the way its not enough to just build alternatives. We have to develop in a way that allows people to utilize those alternatives.
If Texas can get this then there may actually be hope for GDOT.
Jobs are still growing faster in the suburbs. There have been some high profile big companies moving into midtown from the burbs, but that gets publicity because its unusual. The largest companies seem to want transit, but that is helping Dunwoody perhaps even more than midtown.
Also, speaking of Texas (and Dallas, in particular), I like what the State of Texas did when they reconstructed Interstate 635 across the north side of Dallas a few years ago.
The State of Texas basically reconstructed Interstate 635 as a double-decked superhighway. But they built the lower-level as a below-grade express toll road (with variable tolls that go up and down with the level of traffic on the road) and rebuilt the un-tolled general-purpose lanes as a surface-level/slightly above-grade freeway that is actually elevated above the below-grade express toll lanes.
I think that rebuilding at least the Top End (if not the top half) of the Interstate 285 Perimeter as a double-decked superhighway with un-tolled general purpose lanes rebuilt above below-grade variably-tolled express lanes and a *very* high-capacity regional rail transit line running parallel to the I-285 Top End Perimeter corridor at least between the I-75/I-285 Northwest Cobb Cloverleaf and I-85/I-285 Northeast Spaghetti Junction.
Because of the impossibility of a Northern Arc and/or Outer Perimeter superhighway being built as an attempt to take much through traffic off of the I-285 Perimeter (particularly off of the Top End of the I-285 Perimeter), a below-grade double-decking of the Top End and/or Top Half of the I-285 Perimeter with a very high-capacity rail transit line added to the Top End Perimeter corridor likely could be one idea that potentially could greatly help to provide the extra transportation capacity needed for an area with growing traffic volumes like the Top End I-285 Perimeter corridor.
The I-635 reconstruction or the "I-635 LBJ TEXpress" as it is called (which cost $2.7 billion and took over four years to complete) did not have a high-capacity transit component directly included as part of the project.
But because of the different politics of the Atlanta area, as well as also because of the lack of a viable alternative for east-west regional travel north of the I-285 Top End Perimeter, such a project should have a very high-capacity rail transit line included as a key part of it.
Here is a link to a video showing travel through the I-635 LBJ TEXpress lanes project across North Dallas after it was recently completed:
We need leaders who don't have that defeatist attitude. Its antithetical to the Texas mindset. They figure out how to get things done, not why they can't be done.
Rather than pouring more traffic into one corridor as Atlanta has been doing, we need alternative corridors. If you can't politically do a Northern Arc, do a Western Arc and an Eastern Arc, which actually do more good for the whole metro. A Northern Arc is mainly for the northern suburbs. Atlanta needs to get through traffic off 285, 75 and 85. People need to be able to avoid the inner city mess and especially Henry County!
We need leaders who don't have that defeatist attitude. Its antithetical to the Texas mindset. They figure out how to get things done, not why they can't be done.
Georgia has leaders that can get things done... It's just that Georgia's leaders have to get things done in a way that is different from a state like Texas, because the politics and culture in a state like Georgia are different than in a state like Texas.
Georgia leaders have had to deal with a not-insignificant amount of spirited public resistance to large-scale superhighway construction proposals over the last 50+ years or so, starting with freeway revolts in Intown Atlanta in the 1960's and continuing on through the public resistance and backlash against the Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc construction proposals in 2002.
Compare that political environment to Texas, where large-scale superhighway construction proposals seem to encounter very little, if any, meaningful public resistance in and around major city/metros like Houston, the DFW Metroplex, and even Austin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Rather than pouring more traffic into one corridor as Atlanta has been doing, we need alternative corridors. If you can't politically do a Northern Arc, do a Western Arc and an Eastern Arc, which actually do more good for the whole metro. A Northern Arc is mainly for the northern suburbs. Atlanta needs to get through traffic off 285, 75 and 85. People need to be able to avoid the inner city mess and especially Henry County!
That is a good point that the Atlanta area (by way of the State of Georgia) needs to get through traffic off of major roads like Interstates 285, 75 and 85.
Before Georgia leaders attempted to push through the construction of the Northern Arc in the early 2000's, they had planned to build an Outer Perimeter superhighway that would have included each of the stretches of roadway that you suggested. But due to non-compliance with federal clean air standards in the Atlanta metro area/region, the State of Georgia scaled back the proposal to a "Northern Arc" superhighway that would run between I-75 NW and GA 316 in Gwinnett County.
Scaling back the Outer Perimeter road construction proposal to only a Northern Arc actually made the proposed outer bypass roadway concept easier for the opposition to defeat. That's because it meant that those opposed to the road only had to fight against a 59-mile road proposal instead of a 200-mile road proposal.
After Governor Roy Barnes lost the 2002 governor's race partly because of growing public opposition to and anger and outrage over the Northern Arc, incoming Governor Sonny Perdue (who beat Barnes partly by campaigning against the unpopular Northern Arc) cancelled the road in 2003.
Some pro-development local officials in Paulding County tried to push the type of partial "Western Arc" proposal you are talking about back in about 2013 as part of a larger-scale plan that included the development of the Paulding County Airport into a second major airport for the Atlanta region.
But those pro-development local officials were voted out of office and replaced by less developer-friendly politicians in 2014 by Paulding County voters who like to think of their county (where at least about a third of the land area is actual federally-designated wilderness) as an exurban Piedmont/Southern Appalachian foothills wilderness.
Politicians have tried to push through an Outer Perimeter and outer-bypass type of roads, but have basically always been stopped by a Georgia voting public that has proven it will stop at nothing to prevent the construction of those roads, including chaining themselves to and laying in front of bulldozers when few other options might remain.
Having a better developed road network is important, but political leaders (especially at the state level) only have so much political capital... Political capital that needs to be spent on numerous other important issues (health care, education, economic development, existing/other transportation infrastructure, etc).
So it is probably best that Georgia's political leaders do not waste too much precious political capital trying to push Outer Perimeter and outer-bypass road construction proposals that have proven to be so intensely unpopular with the Georgia voting public on multiple occasions in the past.
Jobs are still growing faster in the suburbs. There have been some high profile big companies moving into midtown from the burbs, but that gets publicity because its unusual. The largest companies seem to want transit, but that is helping Dunwoody perhaps even more than midtown.
Where is the data supporting this?
It's more than just a few companies here an there moving into Midtown. From 2015 to 2017 there were 12,000 jobs announced for Midtown. And this is just the 1 square mile Midtown Core and not including the booming neighborhoods such as Old Fourth Ward, and West Midtown that have several offices buildings under construction.
Maybe there's a missed word leading me to misunderstand your post, but in what world have jobs been gravitating back to the center for 50 years? Maybe in the last few years, but not the last 50. And the alternatives have existed in town for at least 40 years.
Fixed
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1
Well, the guys from Texas does say that they need alternatives, but we are going to build as many freeways as we can. GDOT takes mostly an opposite approach: do very little outside of a few tolled lanes.
GDOT adds capacity every chance they get as demonstrated in the 400/285 makeover that will include collector/distributor lanes on 285 and extra lanes on several miles of 400.
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