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Old 02-19-2019, 10:15 PM
 
13,168 posts, read 21,529,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
But this hasn't happened in the metro Atlanta mirror to Gwinnett: Cobb County. Town Center is thriving still and came along exactly the same time Gwinnett Place did. By this logic, an even newer and shinier mall should have gone in at Acworth or Woodstock or some point up 75 or 575. None has. I remember there being plans laid at River Run (? sorry if that is not the right name...) at the north end of Canton that showed a regional mall where the large big box center and movie theater have gone in. Right at old Highway 5 and 575. Someone help me with the name.... But that never came to be.

Town Center has done a lot to help the area stay viable. If I remember correctly, the Town Center CID is the original CID in the metro area. Road improvements and access across 75 and 575 have helped. Having KSU in the immediate area has helped as well. But Town Center has done well because a Mills mall and a Mall of Georgia clone did not go in anywhere up the road.
Riverstone.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:21 PM
 
13,168 posts, read 21,529,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
But this hasn't happened in the metro Atlanta mirror to Gwinnett: Cobb County. Town Center is thriving still and came along exactly the same time Gwinnett Place did. By this logic, an even newer and shinier mall should have gone in at Acworth or Woodstock or some point up 75 or 575. None has. I remember there being plans laid at River Run (? sorry if that is not the right name...) at the north end of Canton that showed a regional mall where the large big box center and movie theater have gone in. Right at old Highway 5 and 575. Someone help me with the name.... But that never came to be.

Town Center has done a lot to help the area stay viable. If I remember correctly, the Town Center CID is the original CID in the metro area. Road improvements and access across 75 and 575 have helped. Having KSU in the immediate area has helped as well. But Town Center has done well because a Mills mall and a Mall of Georgia clone did not go in anywhere up the road.
Exactly. This did not happen in the Cobb/Cherokee/Bartow Corridor and it did not have to happen in the Gwinnett/Hall Corridor.

Gwinnett Place Mall opened in 1984.

Town Center Mall opened in 1986.

What should’ve happened...

An “Avenue”, “Forum”, or “Shoppes” type development in the MoG area instead.




On another note...

It is time to re-name “Town Center Mall” and the “Town Center Area”. This is so stupid now.

My proposal:

Barrett Park Mall

(and Barrett Park for the general area)
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:21 PM
 
5,981 posts, read 5,280,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
Exactly. This did not happen in the Cobb/Cherokee/Bartow Corridor and it did not have to happen in the Gwinnett/Hall Corridor.

Gwinnett Place Mall opened in 1984.

Town Center Mall opened in 1986.

What should’ve happened...

An “Avenue”, “Forum”, or “Shoppes” type development in the MoG area instead.
If the Mall of Georgia development had been built about 5-10 years later, it's possible that it could have been built as an open-air lifestyle center along the lines of the "Avenue," "Forum," or "Shoppes" developments that you are speaking of.

But at the time that the Mall of Georgia opened (in 1999), open-air lifestyle centers had not really come into vogue yet across much of the country, and did not really come into vogue until about the mid-2000's.

Though, as other posters have pointed out, one of the main motivations for the construction of the Mall of Georgia at the site at which it is located (along GA 20, in a wedge between Interstates 85 and 985 north of where they junction in a "Y" type interchange) was that it was near where the then still actively proposed Outer Perimeter superhighway would interchange with GA 20, I-85 and I-985.

Gwinnett County in particular seemed to be home to a real estate development and developer culture that was even more aggressive than other parts of a decidedly pro-development culture throughout metro Atlanta, including in Cobb County.

… So that aggressive pro-development and developer culture in Gwinnett County was bound and destined to act to develop a large regional enclosed mall (the development of which did not fall completely out of favor until the Financial Crisis of 2008) when a large-scale road construction project of regional significance like the Outer Perimeter was proposed to run through the notably pro-development county in the early-mid 1990's.

Gwinnett's exceedingly aggressive pro-development culture in a prime location outside of a very fast-growing major metropolis (Atlanta), next to a major source of water supply (Lake Lanier), along a major transcontinental superhighway (Interstate 85) basically meant that the construction of a large super-regional shopping mall had to happen in the Gwinnett/Hall corridor when the opportunity presented itself (of a new Interstate-standard outer loop superhighway of regional significance being proposed to be built through the county)… That is particularly from the standpoint of Gwinnett's very aggressive pro-development political and business leadership of the era.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:03 AM
 
Location: atlanta
4,124 posts, read 4,735,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post

On another note...

It is time to re-name “Town Center Mall” and the “Town Center Area”. This is so stupid now.

My proposal:

Barrett Park Mall

(and Barrett Park for the general area)

lol please don't change
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:23 AM
 
5,981 posts, read 5,280,875 times
Reputation: 3986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
But this hasn't happened in the metro Atlanta mirror to Gwinnett: Cobb County. Town Center is thriving still and came along exactly the same time Gwinnett Place did. By this logic, an even newer and shinier mall should have gone in at Acworth or Woodstock or some point up 75 or 575. None has. I remember there being plans laid at River Run (? sorry if that is not the right name...) at the north end of Canton that showed a regional mall where the large big box center and movie theater have gone in. Right at old Highway 5 and 575. Someone help me with the name.... But that never came to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
Riverstone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Town Center has done a lot to help the area stay viable. If I remember correctly, the Town Center CID is the original CID in the metro area. Road improvements and access across 75 and 575 have helped. Having KSU in the immediate area has helped as well. But Town Center has done well because a Mills mall and a Mall of Georgia clone did not go in anywhere up the road.
Brother Marks makes some excellent points that a regional or super-regional mall has not been built farther out from Town Center Mall in outer-suburban Northwest metro Atlanta the way that two additional regional malls (Sugarloaf Mills Mall and the Mall of Georgia) were built farther out beyond and after Gwinnett Place Mall in Gwinnett County and outer-suburban Northeast metro Atlanta.

Brother Marks also makes an excellent point that Town Center Mall has done a lot to help the surrounding area stay viable... Which the surrounding area of North Cobb County has not only stayed viable but has thrived because of the presence of Town Center Mall, which has worked to helped attract much commercial development, industry and employment to the area.

Suburban Northwest metro Atlanta has not had another large major regional or super-regional mall open up since Town Center Mall opened in 1986.

But Town Center Mall has still had a noticeable degree of competing retail establishments to open up in nearby areas in recent years, including numerous big-box department stores (including Walmart Supercenters, SuperTargets, Costco stores, etc.), a couple of open-air lifestyle centers (The Avenue West Cobb and The Avenue East Cobb), a rehabbed Cumberland Mall in the mid-2000's, a popular outlet mall (The Outlet Shoppes at Atlanta) up the road on I-575 in Woodstock (that opened in 2013), and the new Battery mixed-use entertainment development that opened with SunTrust Park in 2017.

And while Town Center Mall appears to continue to survive pretty decently well in an increasingly challenging retail marketplace of circa-2019, it is significantly concerning that about four of the mall's five department store anchor spots are occupied by notably challenged retailers like Macy's (who continues to actively downsize its bricks-and-mortar retail footprint), JcPenney's (who is in a state of significant contraction of its bricks-and-mortar stores) and Sears (which appears to be just barely still alive on life support at this point in time).

Over its 33-year existence, Town Center Mall has been an important, if not critical major generator of economic activity, growth, development and prosperity for North Cobb County.

But Town Center Mall definitely appears to face an uncertain future as it attempts to continue to survive and stay viable in a retail environment and marketplace that is far different (and far more unstable and volatile) from what now seems like was a comparatively quaint retail environment and marketplace in which the mall enjoyed and dominated for the first several years after its opening in 1986.

Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 02-20-2019 at 04:55 AM..
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:49 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,896 posts, read 2,106,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
I don't know about that....

The metro area had a very strong history of "build a mall and the masses will come" for decades before Mall of Georgia went up. It happened in Kennesaw, Duluth and Alpharetta years before Mall of Georgia.

I think they knew it would explode. They just didn't care. Back when that mall was built, we were just finishing up the mall culture, where there was cache in having the largest mall in XXX. If I recall, Mall of Georgia was originally supposed to be the largest mall in the southeast. I don't know what ever happened to that, but it ended up just being the largest mall in Georgia (who cares?)

Anyway...what I'm trying to say is there's absolutely no excuse for that area to be planned as poorly as it was. Even some of the satellite shopping centers were built so close to GA 20 that you can't get in and out of them without a huge mess because cars are coming from both sides, wanting to turn right or left, but there's not enough room for them to queue, so they are just blocking everything. It's a disaster.
All around the periphery they continue developing without thinking making the same mistakes again and again regarding road layout.

It’s because the speculative developers are making all the choices and local officials are plagued by the Atlanta “mindless” status quo, never noticing that things can be done better to avoid this problem, that problem, etc.

Like the time I went to get a haircut at American barbershop (diff. From Amer. Haircuts) in South Forsythe perhaps exit 13 off 400.

Trying to spot it in a cluster of brand new strip shopping stores, I passed it as u crossed an intersectioand had to turn around.

Middle of a weekday, just driving til I could make a u-turn and then getting through that intersection and then right turning into the strip of shops took over 10 minutes!

That intersection with the traffic and left turn phases took forever and they had every opportunity to configure left turns another way to eliminate the protected left turn phase which adds so much wait time.

Michagan lefts, Jersey jughandles or NC supersteets could have been implemented if Forsyth’s officials just thought about it or researched online the evolution of street layout.

The mall of Georgia may eventually usurped by Something in Commerce, and the driver in that area has been affordable homes accessible to the metro area.

The mall doesn’t cater to the average shopper at Lenox and I don’t see anything great about it.

And yes, Georgia loves to get noticed by building one “biggest” amenity such as the aquarium which is hundreds of miles from the ocean and not where salt water wildlife should be living IMhO.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:39 AM
 
8,096 posts, read 9,934,857 times
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A lot of really excellent points made in here. Especially intriguing is the notion that as early as 20 years ago, nobody thought the outdoor "lifestyle center" was a better alternative to the enclosed mall. That proves one thing: the longevity of these centers is yet to be proven. They're still relatively new, and it's unclear whether they will stand the test of time.

It's actually tough to believe MOG is 20 years old, I still think of it as new! I remember giggling the first time I went there because you had to pass by an actual rest stop. It really felt like it was in the middle of NOWHERE! For context, MOG is as old today as Gwinnett Place was in 2004, when it was probably just starting to show some signs of age.

I kind of thought they were crazy for building the mall so far out, but in hindsight, it may work out extremely favorably for them. Drawing heavily from the more rural areas north and east of the mall, that crowd is less fickle than urban dwellers. They're happier to eat at PF Chang's and less likely to worry about MOG being an enclosed mall instead of a lifestyle center, or whatever you call them. They may be what keeps the mall viable.

To my original point, I actually have no problem with MOG itself. However, I feel like all of the satellite shopping centers along GA 20 were developed ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLY!!!! Most of them have zero access aside from GA 20. Compare that to GPM, where pretty much all the developments have access to Pleasant Hill AND some perpendicular road like Satellite, Venture Dr., Mall Blvd., Old Norcross, or something. MOG funnels all traffic to GA 20, which of course is ridiculous. Especially when you consider the entire area was master planned and they could have done whatever they wanted. Planners and engineers in 1999 knew better. There's no excuse.

While I have no doubt MOG itself will continue to thrive, what I was more concerned about is the satellite businesses. I know I won't go to them. I wonder if enough people feel the same. Many of the stores in MOG built locations that are bigger than typical locations, making them worth visiting, even if it's a bit more hassle sometimes. Most of the satellite businesses are exactly the same as their locations elsewhere. The Bed Bath and Beyond isn't even as big as the location in Buckhead, where I assume land costs a lot more.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,471 posts, read 7,480,380 times
Reputation: 4247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
But this hasn't happened in the metro Atlanta mirror to Gwinnett: Cobb County. Town Center is thriving still and came along exactly the same time Gwinnett Place did. By this logic, an even newer and shinier mall should have gone in at Acworth or Woodstock or some point up 75 or 575. None has. I remember there being plans laid at River Run (? sorry if that is not the right name...) at the north end of Canton that showed a regional mall where the large big box center and movie theater have gone in. Right at old Highway 5 and 575. Someone help me with the name.... But that never came to be.

Town Center has done a lot to help the area stay viable. If I remember correctly, the Town Center CID is the original CID in the metro area. Road improvements and access across 75 and 575 have helped. Having KSU in the immediate area has helped as well. But Town Center has done well because a Mills mall and a Mall of Georgia clone did not go in anywhere up the road.
I see your point, but at the same time I remember that era and what was happening in Gwinnett.

There was alot of interest in building more in that direction and there were concerns about it possibly going to Hall County or the city of Buford annexing the area. When they built the MoG, it worked. It was widely successful. I wouldn't forget that part. I think if they didn't do something they would have been open to more competition.

I don't know the dynamics of Cobb as well, but town center was already a bit further out of town as the crossroads of 75 and 575 in an ideal spot to still be attracting all of the suburban development further out on the Northwest Corridor. Further out, an they are no longer at an ideal transportation cross-roads.

By the time development pressure would go further out than Town Center in Cobb... the trend changed to smaller outdoor shopping avenues. Gwinnett/MoG had the economic pressure to build further out when the trend was still malls.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:33 AM
 
2,861 posts, read 1,330,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
And yes, Georgia loves to get noticed by building one “biggest” amenity such as the aquarium which is hundreds of miles from the ocean and not where salt water wildlife should be living IMhO.
Reading thru threads that really don't really concern me as a local. But interesting and you learn more about cities you merely have visited. ATLANTAS AQUARIUM SHOULD NOT BE SEEN AS A WASTE.... BUT VISIONARY IN PART as a asset if a growing city in stature.

A Aquarium not on a ocean.... is still a asset. Heck, there are much older Aquariums in the middle of the Country. Even NJ's state Aquarium is in Camden along the Delaware river. Just across from Philly. Its basically the farthest from the loooong coast of NJ in that state as you could be .... before entering PA.

Dallas has the Texas Aquarium. It's certainly the farthest large metro in that state .... from the Gulf.

Then there is Chicago's (not a State museum). Along Lake Michigan (still a large body of water), but 1000-miles from the ocean. But by far .... it isn't to showcase the Lake Michigan habitat its on. Shedd Aquarium was the first inland aquarium with a permanent saltwater fish collection and largest in the world for some time and built in 1929 (not with state money as most early great museums were by philanthropist and donors). But builting the Aquarium was the gift of retail leader John G. Shedd, to the city of Chicago. He did not live to cut the ribbon for its opening, but his widow did. It gets over 2-million visitors a year and listed as a National landmark not run or built by the State.

So Atlanta getting a Aquarium away from the coast..... wasn't new or stupid or just a waste. But a Big city that has most of its largest or most popular museums. Cities though that got their best museums, near its core. Would be a preferred location for its vibrancy and tourism. Many Sunbelt cities have great institutions.... but much more scattered in huge metros.

Chicago having 3 of its major museum's in one location in its core next to Soldier Field stadium as a Museum Campus. Is great for easy access to tourist. Staying in a downtown hotel. Gives you access to its top museums and main touristy attractions and Parks to even walk too.

Shedd's setting could not be better and no one says
a inland Aquarium was stupid to conceive of.... even in the 1920s.
Aquarium seen on the right here 1000 miles from the ocean.
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Mall of Georgia is a complete and total unmitigated disaster-over-chicagos-front-lake-michigan-downtown  
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:19 AM
 
13,168 posts, read 21,529,812 times
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Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
lol please don't change
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