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Old 04-23-2020, 09:25 AM
 
1,677 posts, read 688,969 times
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Great interview with John Glover who was Special Agent in Charge of the Atlanta Division of the FBI. He dispels a lot of myths, misinformation, and non truths about the investigation, evidence, and the case. Also dispels myths about "The List" and how missing and murdered children got placed on there (some parents demanded their child be put on "the list" even when there was no reason to)


https://jerriwilliams.com/episode-18...ayne-williams/
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Old 05-04-2020, 08:38 AM
 
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How have Wayne's lawyers explained Cheryl Johnson? Was she ever found?
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Old 05-08-2020, 10:24 AM
 
702 posts, read 297,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks View Post
It was investigated. What the KKK did in 1920 has nothing to do with this case in the late 70's and early 80's. Are you saying that judge Clarence Cooper was a KKK member? Lee Brown? John Glover? Maynard Jackson? You sound as ridiculous as Wayne Williams.
Finally got around to watching this documentary, and I have a few remarks in response to this post, but also others:

1) It is abundantly clear and stated that KLB reopened the cases to reevaluate and try to achieve some understanding for the deaths of those children that officers and courts did not. She never stated the reopening was to exonerate Wayne Williams, and that there may be more than one killer (again, not exonerating Wayne Williams).

2) The GBI and FBI were under immense fire and ridicule for evidence being rendered unreliable due to poor testing conditions, shoddy workplace settings, and the destruction of the integrity of sources. This also includes the overwhelming strategy that adjudicated Williams's guilt from fiber evidence. The KKK-related targets and Williams had the same fibers from commercial decorations, IE the green fiber of the rug. So what they're attempting to do is to retest what is still dependable, but also add new ways of testing that were not available then–such as DNA, which includes not just Williams, but also pubic hair fibers of caucasian people. This is just one of the most recent examples of how new forms of testing are actually forcing people to readjust their opinions: https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...C328aeOOQpZiM/

3) Williams's defense lawyers are going to have the civil rights goals they believe they should achieve for him. Of course they're going to pursue exoneration. Are you not familiar with the shameful and large accounts of American citizens, especially Black male citizens, who are placed in jail without reliable information? So of course they're going to disbelieve in a justice system that produces that inequity. But with regards to this specific situation, his lawyers have proved that many of the witnesses committed perjury on the stage, and were paid-for by prosecutors. I'm not writing this to approve of their actions, but one need very little imagination to think that something like this is possible.

4) Picking 1920 allows you to completely ignore later and contemporary issues of violence done by the KKK. The Atlanta Child Murders is not about one case, and Williams was never charged with the majority of child murders. He went to jail on account of adult murders, with extenuating arguments from the child deaths that convinced the jury.

So when you have unreliable material evidence, perjuries (which involved a Klansman testifying under a false identity), withheld information about a classified and directly related case, destroyed evidence by the plaintiff and defendant, this case was designed to reappear due to how shoddily and hastily it was put together.

I get that you may be frustrated when attention is on white violent offenders (which isn't negligible), but the documentary itself does a couple things beyond that:

* The documentary criticizes a popular mentality among one segment of the Black community that was more willing to have this disappear than achieve justice. In one episode, someone said "Atlanta isn't a city of resistance, it's a city about the Black middle class." It shares a lot of examples that dismantle Atlanta as a mythic Black Mecca by focusing on what actually was the majority experience–poverty, crime and familial instability.

* The documentary also points out that the city already had a problematic relationship with its police, because the prior (and unrevealed) cohorts of police were majority white, Klansman, or KKK-affiliated who were responsible for policing majority Black communities. With the delay in attention until pressure is mounted, even a more racially diverse police are going to have to confront rightfully unhappy people they are said to serve. If you want one resource for where to begin about KKK in midcentury police stations in the south, including Georgia, these are good places to begin: https://www.splcenter.org/sites/defa...-of-Racism.pdf or here: http://www.sweetauburn.us/rings/kkk.htm.

* It already shares that one of the white KKK family members were let off of charges, but in the very same breadth, it shows that the same lack of evidence is what convicted Williams.

At the end of the day, this is a conversation about more violent offenders than it just being a "black versus white" conversation, whether or not the family believes what little they've been given or not. The documentary never argues that one person committed all of these crimes. It could even be more than Williams and the KKK for that many children (the documentary implicates parents, for example). And it's highly likely that this documentary was only made because of the appeal, not because it sides with Williams's attorneys. I left the documentary feeling like it could literally be anything, but no one can argue that it's something that Atlanta as a city has come to terms with or even honored. I think KLB mentioned there will be a monument to these children. That's a step no one's made since the cases closed.
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Old 05-08-2020, 01:02 PM
 
1,677 posts, read 688,969 times
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Finally got around to watching this documentary, and I have a few remarks in response to this post, but also others:

Quote:
1) It is abundantly clear and stated that KLB reopened the cases to reevaluate and try to achieve some understanding for the deaths of those children that officers and courts did not. She never stated the reopening was to exonerate Wayne Williams, and that there may be more than one killer (again, not exonerating Wayne Williams).
All the cases were investigated. All the cases were not tried in court. KLB and others (including Monica Kaufman Pearson) ignorantly implied all the cases were not investigated at the time which is false. They were. Not only by APD but also by GBI and FBI.



Quote:
2) The GBI and FBI were under immense fire and ridicule for evidence being rendered unreliable due to poor testing conditions, shoddy workplace settings, and the destruction of the integrity of sources. This also includes the overwhelming strategy that adjudicated Williams's guilt from fiber evidence. The KKK-related targets and Williams had the same fibers from commercial decorations, IE the green fiber of the rug. So what they're attempting to do is to retest what is still dependable, but also add new ways of testing that were not available then–such as DNA, which includes not just Williams, but also pubic hair fibers of caucasian people. This is just one of the most recent examples of how new forms of testing are actually forcing people to readjust their opinions: https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...C328aeOOQpZiM/
It wasn't the same green trilobal fibers that were found in the Williams home. In fact since that case no other instance of that fiber has been found in any fiber case up to this time. That is 40 years. Those fibers were unique to the Williams home not the Sanders home. You must have missed how the FBI sent their fiber expert to Atlanta and 90% of the fiber evidence in the case was tested at GBI headquarters in Atlanta not in Quantico Virginia.


Quote:
3) Williams's defense lawyers are going to have the civil rights goals they believe they should achieve for him. Of course they're going to pursue exoneration. Are you not familiar with the shameful and large accounts of American citizens, especially Black male citizens, who are placed in jail without reliable information? So of course they're going to disbelieve in a justice system that produces that inequity. But with regards to this specific situation, his lawyers have proved that many of the witnesses committed perjury on the stage, and were paid-for by prosecutors. I'm not writing this to approve of their actions, but one need very little imagination to think that something like this is possible.
The HBO documentary left off many other eye witness accounts of people who saw Williams with the children days before they went missing or were found murdered. There were multiple witnesses that said at the time Williams unsuccessfully tried to abduct them. After the case 3 people have come forward saying Williams tried to abduct them in the late 1970's.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...E9FJZMgrFRpdM/
https://people.com/crime/wayne-willi...ounts-fleeing/
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...xqz8I3ZiOmTDL/

Quote:
4) Picking 1920 allows you to completely ignore later and contemporary issues of violence done by the KKK. The Atlanta Child Murders is not about one case, and Williams was never charged with the majority of child murders. He went to jail on account of adult murders, with extenuating arguments from the child deaths that convinced the jury.
It doesn't allow me anything. As evidenced by the documentary mentioning that the KKK had been completely neutered by the late 70's and early 80's. Even today people try and talk about the KKK like they are some powerful organization when in reality they have been neutered for decades.


Quote:
So when you have unreliable material evidence, perjuries (which involved a Klansman testifying under a false identity), withheld information about a classified and directly related case, destroyed evidence by the plaintiff and defendant, this case was designed to reappear due to how shoddily and hastily it was put together.
The fiber evidence is real. The blood evidence is real. The dog hair evidence is real. Bobby Toland was not a member of the KKK that was false and one thing of many this documentary embellished.


Quote:
I get that you may be frustrated when attention is on white violent offenders (which isn't negligible), but the documentary itself does a couple things beyond that:
I like to be accurate. This documentary took many liberties and didn't tell the whole story. It left off critical information like many "documentaries" of its kind often do to shape a narrative.


Quote:
* The documentary criticizes a popular mentality among one segment of the Black community that was more willing to have this disappear than achieve justice. In one episode, someone said "Atlanta isn't a city of resistance, it's a city about the Black middle class." It shares a lot of examples that dismantle Atlanta as a mythic Black Mecca by focusing on what actually was the majority experience–poverty, crime and familial instability.
I don't think for one second that someone with the integrity of Maynard Jackson or Andrew Young would want to sacrifice anything in the name of business simply to pin a murder on someone black. That assertion is laughable unless you think that Maynard Jackson was not an honorable person?


Quote:
* The documentary also points out that the city already had a problematic relationship with its police, because the prior (and unrevealed) cohorts of police were majority white, Klansman, or KKK-affiliated who were responsible for policing majority Black communities. With the delay in attention until pressure is mounted, even a more racially diverse police are going to have to confront rightfully unhappy people they are said to serve. If you want one resource for where to begin about KKK in midcentury police stations in the south, including Georgia, these are good places to begin: https://www.splcenter.org/sites/defa...-of-Racism.pdf or here: http://www.sweetauburn.us/rings
Maynard Jackson when he took office in 1974 along with Lee Brown took care of the racial disparity in the police office. So much so that both black and white officers sued for discriminatory practices by Brown and Jackson in reshaping the police force. By 1979 the police force was very different than it was in 1970.



Quote:
* It already shares that one of the white KKK family members were let off of charges, but in the very same breadth, it shows that the same lack of evidence is what convicted Williams.
Let off of what charges? They weren't charged because there was no evidence to charge them. They weren't on a bridge at 2 AM looking for Cheryl Johnson (who to this day doesn't exist)


Quote:
At the end of the day, this is a conversation about more violent offenders than it just being a "black versus white" conversation, whether or not the family believes what little they've been given or not. The documentary never argues that one person committed all of these crimes. It could even be more than Williams and the KKK for that many children (the documentary implicates parents, for example). And it's highly likely that this documentary was only made because of the appeal, not because it sides with Williams's attorneys. I left the documentary feeling like it could literally be anything, but no one can argue that it's something that Atlanta as a city has come to terms with or even honored. I think KLB mentioned there will be a monument to these children. That's a step no one's made since the cases closed.
At the end of the day the actual evidence and eye witness testimony (which the documentary conveniently left out) points to Wayne Bertram Williams being the killer of most of the 29 or 30 victims. I don't know anyone who thinks Wayne Williams killed all 29 or 30 victims. There are likely 3 or possibly 4 other killers. Some being Jamie Brooks, Tom Terrell or parents of the children. If one of them happens to be 'white' instead of black how exactly does that change anything? Murder is murder. A white person committing the murder doesn't make it a more vile act. If you want to actually read the facts of the case I would go to the link below and read through the pages of interviews and evidence against Wayne Williams. The HBO documentary sensationalized the story to fit a narrative that isn't backed up by the actual facts of the case. The evidence wasn't just hair and carpet fiber samples. It was a lot of eye witness testimony that wasn't covered by HBO for some reason. If you don't want to know the facts then ignore the link and watch the documentary over and over. The idea that the APD, GBI, and FBI framed Wayne Willams for murder is asinine. Wayne Williams isn't a victim. He is a homosexual pedophile necrophile narcissistic sociopath who continues to torture and play with the emotions of the victims families to this very day. The first step in solving these cases is for Wayne Williams to admit to the killings he committed so the remaining cases can be looked at. He won't ever do that though. It isn't how he operates.



https://vault.fbi.gov/Atlanta%20Child%20Murders
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Old 05-09-2020, 06:41 AM
 
702 posts, read 297,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks View Post
All the cases were investigated. All the cases were not tried in court. KLB and others (including Monica Kaufman Pearson) ignorantly implied all the cases were not investigated at the time which is false. They were. Not only by APD but also by GBI and FBI.
Would you share or reshare what you're referring to right now? WSBTV's and AJC's coverage basically repeats the same info: "Bottoms noted that evidence does link Williams to many of the murdered children, but wants to make sure there isn’t something new to be learned from re-testing evidence. She requested the new investigation months after she met Catherine Leach-Bell, whose son, 13-year-old Curtis Walker, was among the victims.“It may be there is nothing left to be tested,” Bottoms said during a news conference. “But I do think history will judge us by our actions and we will be able to say we tried.” (https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-at...aIeJkzF0PwBkM/) The reasoning of the italicized here doesn't support what you're saying.

Quote:
It wasn't the same green trilobal fibers that were found in the Williams home. In fact since that case no other instance of that fiber has been found in any fiber case up to this time. That is 40 years. Those fibers were unique to the Williams home not the Sanders home. You must have missed how the FBI sent their fiber expert to Atlanta and 90% of the fiber evidence in the case was tested at GBI headquarters in Atlanta not in Quantico Virginia.
No, actually I found that the documentary spent way too much time discussing fibers only to say that similar fibers were found from one of the white males accused, too. By "same" they meant that, with the integrity of the fiber evidence now challenged, Williams's lawyers found a double standard not duly attended to in court.

Quote:
The HBO documentary left off many other eye witness accounts of people who saw Williams with the children days before they went missing or were found murdered. There were multiple witnesses that said at the time Williams unsuccessfully tried to abduct them. After the case 3 people have come forward saying Williams tried to abduct them in the late 1970's.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...E9FJZMgrFRpdM/
https://people.com/crime/wayne-willi...ounts-fleeing/
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...xqz8I3ZiOmTDL/
The point is that they argue witness evidence was entirely circumstantial and not dependable. I already read one of those links you shared prior to this thread. What's even more disgusting is that the case mishandling completely undermined witness remarks. I'm definitely not going to give energy to whether or not they were true because I think victims should always be afforded space to be believed.

Quote:
It doesn't allow me anything. As evidenced by the documentary mentioning that the KKK had been completely neutered by the late 70's and early 80's. Even today people try and talk about the KKK like they are some powerful organization when in reality they have been neutered for decades.
No, the documentary doesn't mention the KKK had been "completely neutered." It argues that the KKK, which was forced to go underground, and which splintered similar white supremacist groups, was still something law should have given more attention to. That's what the whole docuseries culminates to. I suggest rewatching it.

Quote:
The fiber evidence is real. The blood evidence is real. The dog hair evidence is real. Bobby Toland was not a member of the KKK that was false and one thing of many this documentary embellished.
I'm not retesting this case nor is this a hill I'd die on. The documentary does make an interesting and compelling case that the first three things you mention are also evidence that wasn't conclusive and was also evidence not considered from its caucasian sources. Again, I am not, nor is anybody, arguing that Wayne Williams isn't guilty for something except his lawyers who are challenging the details.

Quote:
I like to be accurate. This documentary took many liberties and didn't tell the whole story. It left off critical information like many "documentaries" of its kind often do to shape a narrative.
Of course it would, just like every other documentary/docuseries. The first that comes to mind is the docuseries for JonBenet Ramsey. Television documentaries are meant to be part-entertainment, no matter how much their embellishments frustrate people or get something right. So take the issue up with the format, really, that exploits these cases for their own money and motives. The most popular today is Tiger King.

Quote:
I don't think for one second that someone with the integrity of Maynard Jackson or Andrew Young would want to sacrifice anything in the name of business simply to pin a murder on someone black. That assertion is laughable unless you think that Maynard Jackson was not an honorable person?
To stay on topic, the documentary doesn't directly accuse Jackson or Young of that, but instead, focuses on a mentality in one segment of the African American community who simply wanted this mess to go away rather than stick. The documentary shares quotes, statements, and news remarks as evidence.

Quote:
Maynard Jackson when he took office in 1974 along with Lee Brown took care of the racial disparity in the police office. So much so that both black and white officers sued for discriminatory practices by Brown and Jackson in reshaping the police force. By 1979 the police force was very different than it was in 1970.
In terms of employment, sure. Having a multiracial police force doesn't erase history or encourage communities to immediately start loving their police. This is all I'll say, otherwise we'll be getting way off of topic.

Quote:
Let off of what charges? They weren't charged because there was no evidence to charge them. They weren't on a bridge at 2 AM looking for Cheryl Johnson (who to this day doesn't exist)
You're right, charge isn't the right word here. Accused. But you're wrong about no evidence existing, hence why KLB is going to have people go back through what the city currently has to test.

I'm going to break the quote below down, because you seem to be having a conversation with yourself:

Quote:
At the end of the day the actual evidence and eye witness testimony (which the documentary conveniently left out) points to Wayne Bertram Williams being the killer of most of the 29 or 30 victims. I don't know anyone who thinks Wayne Williams killed all 29 or 30 victims. There are likely 3 or possibly 4 other killers. Some being Jamie Brooks, Tom Terrell or parents of the children.
Yeah, the Williams case is not part of my generation, so I don't personally know any of the community assumed in the documentary. My elders have their opinions though, but I wouldn't use it to generalize everyone else.

Quote:
If one of them happens to be 'white' instead of black how exactly does that change anything? Murder is murder.
While it may not change the atrocity of it all, it does contribute one of many more examples to how unfairly the justice system confers sentences with great racial disparities. And maybe enough would care to demand fair treatment. If that's not your interest, that's simply not your interest.

Quote:
A white person committing the murder doesn't make it a more vile act.
Who said it does?


Quote:
If you want to actually read the facts of the case I would go to the link below and read through the pages of interviews and evidence against Wayne Williams. The HBO documentary sensationalized the story to fit a narrative that isn't backed up by the actual facts of the case. The evidence wasn't just hair and carpet fiber samples. It was a lot of eye witness testimony that wasn't covered by HBO for some reason.

https://vault.fbi.gov/Atlanta%20Child%20Murders
The link you provided is a good resource. Took a quick gander–the KKK investigation's missing from that but maybe it's not, after more digging through what was digitized. When I have the time to spare, maybe I'll return but that's definitely not going to be my only source.


Quote:
If you don't want to know the facts then ignore the link and watch the documentary over and over. The idea that the APD, GBI, and FBI framed Wayne Willams for murder is asinine. Wayne Williams isn't a victim. He is a homosexual pedophile necrophile narcissistic sociopath who continues to torture and play with the emotions of the victims families to this very day.
There's so many more other places to learn about this case than the documentary. Assuming that'd be my only outlet is flamebait, but go off.


Quote:
The first step in solving these cases is for Wayne Williams to admit to the killings he committed so the remaining cases can be looked at. He won't ever do that though. It isn't how he operates.
So, you literally just wrote that the cases won't be solved then.

This brings me back to KLB even discussing this in 2019–she said that she is trying to achieve a better understanding for these children, and if the evidence can provide something more without Wayne Williams, then it will.
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Old 05-15-2020, 05:37 PM
 
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If law enforcement had evidence of KKK involvement in those murders then those KKK members who did the killings would have been arrested. They would have been arrested to prevent them from committing more killings. It's kinda that simple.
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Old 05-21-2020, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,542 posts, read 4,497,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
If law enforcement had evidence of KKK involvement in those murders then those KKK members who did the killings would have been arrested. They would have been arrested to prevent them from committing more killings. It's kinda that simple.

You are assuming that law enforcement at the time of the murders of the Atlanta children...were even trying to make a halfway decent effort to conduct a proper investigation.

There are accusations that say that:

1) not only was law enforcement not even trying to solve the crime,

but that,

2) there may have been members of the law enforcement community that were actually involved in committing the murders of the children.

There are a lot of variables and moving pieces in this old, yet still raw-to-the-emotions case.

Hopefully better technology, better professional investigative practices, and a more socially, culturally, and politically committed Metro Atlanta populace...can push for a proper and decent resolution for this painful case.
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Old 05-21-2020, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,542 posts, read 4,497,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0nyxStation View Post
Whats really sad is many Atlanta metro citizens still do not care about those children.

Definitely dont care about the boys, that much is certain.

That is the one trait that pisses me off about my black community, is that we allowed certain elements of the community to push girls to the top of the concerns list...and at the same time pushed the boys to the bottom of the list.

The black community has a real bad habit of not supporting its boys. And this bad trait really starting to show more and more each year.
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post

2) there may have been members of the law enforcement community that were actually involved in committing the murders of the children.
Why would members of the law enforcement community want to kill children? For what purpose? Killings coming from law enforcement seems like they would have a different motivation than murders being committed by a psychopathic serial killer.
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:46 AM
 
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Here's another reason I think KKK involvement in these murders were unlikely.

If any Klan members had any sense then they would know that it would be a bad move to start killing a lot of Black kids. Who would many people suspect of doing the killings? The Klan. This suspicion would only invite more informants and surveillance the Klan's way. The Klan wouldn't want all of that.
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