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Rural toll roads don't generally get much traffic unless there is no viable alternative. If the Northern Arc were tolled, most of the traffic would avoid it and use 75-285-85 instead, which is precisely what the Northern Arc needs to avoid.
Think about TX-130. If it didn't have tolls, a lot more people would use it as its intended design of a bypass of IH-35 down to San Antonio.
TX-130 frequently gets congested between 45 and 290 and is currently undergoing widening.
They're also considering lowering the speed limit from 80 to 75.
That area out there is no longer rural either. Pfugerville, Manor, Hutto, Georgetown, Round Rock have sprawled around and are pretty dependent on 130.
The reasons it isn't considered as a viable alternative to San Antonio is because its positioning on the East side of I-35 rather than West where the hills, lakes and scenic areas are which vastly opposed highways in that area *hint hint* which would have been a much more direct route than the current alignment. They even increased the speed limit on the rural sections to 85 MPH in hopes to attract more ridership but it just goes too far out the way.
When I go to San Antonio, I only use it to -stretch- the Camaro's legs so to speak in the 'autobahn zones'...otherwise its no faster than I-35.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 02-13-2020 at 12:12 PM..
TX-130 frequently gets congested between 45 and 290 and is currently undergoing widening.
They're also considering lowering the speed limit from 80 to 75.
That area out there is no longer rural either. Pfugerville, Manor, Hutto, Georgetown, Round Rock have sprawled around and are pretty dependent on 130.
The reasons it isn't considered as a viable alternative to San Antonio is because its positioning on the East side of I-35 rather than West where the hills, lakes and scenic areas are which vastly opposed highways in that area *hint hint* which would have been a much more direct route than the current alignment. They even increased the speed limit on the rural sections to 85 MPH in hopes to attract more ridership but it just goes too far out the way.
When I go to San Antonio, I only use it to -stretch- the Camaro's legs so to speak in the 'autobahn zones'...otherwise its no faster than I-35.
I was talking about the section south of Austin, not east.
Remember that the hills of west Austin are much closer to Austin than the hills of North Georgia are to Atlanta. Surely there would be similar protesting here...per capita.
I was talking about the section south of Austin, not east.
Remember that the hills of west Austin are much closer to Austin than the hills of North Georgia are to Atlanta. Surely there would be similar protesting here...per capita.
It's definitely a fun tollroad. But its kind of in the wrong place to attract the ridership its intended for, needs to be about 50 miles to the west and come in North Central area of San Antonio. It would probably triple in ridership if it were, so its not really a great example, its too undesirable of a route in both logistics and price for people who don't drive Camaro's .
If the northern bypass does come about, I think it would be a result of corporate lobbying from metro Atlanta companies who see it as a way to relieve traffic on the top-end perimeter, and in the future, on the East Wall. Georgia politics are heavily influenced by corporate lobbying, and if politicians ever decided that campaign contributions > local public outcry, especially from outside their districts, they might cave.
The scenario that you describe ironically is almost strikingly similar to the scenario that unfolded in the lead up to the public's rejection of and backlash against the road before its eventual cancellation in the early 2000's.
It was lobbying from business interests (particularly from real estate and land development interests) that motivated the administration of Governor Roy Barnes and Georgia state government to push for the construction of the Outer Perimeter in the late 1990's.
And then it was lobbying by that same business faction that motivated the Barnes administration to keep part of the unpopular Outer Perimeter alive as the Northern Arc after the cancellation of the rest of the road in or about the year 2000.
The fact that the road was being heavily pushed by business interests (particularly real estate/land development interests) seemed to be one of the major factors that contributed to the growing unpopularity of the road with the public at the time.
And because of the intense public backlash against the road when it was being pushed back in the early 2000's, it is not clear if the business community (not unlike many Georgia politicians) would want to expend so much political capital of its own by again pushing a deeply unpopular road construction proposal with a very high risk of failure in the Northern Arc.
… That is especially when the business community seems to need to keep and strategically use its political capital to weigh in on other types of controversial legislation under the Gold Dome (like on potentially damaging social issues like Religious Liberty, other controversial issues like the threatened state takeover of the Atlanta Airport, etc.).
The scenario that you describe ironically is almost strikingly similar to the scenario that unfolded in the lead up to the public's rejection of and backlash against the road before its eventual cancellation in the early 2000's.
It was lobbying from business interests (particularly from real estate and land development interests) that motivated the administration of Governor Roy Barnes and Georgia state government to push for the construction of the Outer Perimeter in the late 1990's.
And then it was lobbying by that same business faction that motivated the Barnes administration to keep part of the unpopular Outer Perimeter alive as the Northern Arc after the cancellation of the rest of the road in or about the year 2000.
The fact that the road was being heavily pushed by business interests (particularly real estate/land development interests) seemed to be one of the major factors that contributed to the growing unpopularity of the road with the public at the time.
And because of the intense public backlash against the road when it was being pushed back in the early 2000's, it is not clear if the business community (not unlike many Georgia politicians) would want to expend so much political capital of its own by again pushing a deeply unpopular road construction proposal with a very high risk of failure in the Northern Arc.
… That is especially when the business community seems to need to keep and strategically use its political capital to weigh in on other types of controversial legislation under the Gold Dome (like on potentially damaging social issues like Religious Liberty, other controversial issues like the threatened state takeover of the Atlanta Airport, etc.).
If it's true that the political climate has changed very little in the last two decades, then you're right, the Northern Arc is still DOA. However:
1) The Northern Arc would probably cross Gordon-Pickens-Dawson counties, not Cherokee-Forsyth.
2) Those conservative Democrats are now Republicans.
3) Business interests are even more entrenched in our state politics than they were in the 90s. I have no doubt that they carried a considerable amount of clout over all the express lane expansion plans on 285 and 400.
But you're right, B2R, there would be a lot of people that would fight the Northern Arc tooth and nail. For that reason it may never get built.
Regardless of what their intentions are, limiting it to freeway connections severely limits its usefulness. Its just a horrible idea.
Ideal is exits every 2 to 5 miles. If its every mile, then you are creating something like an urban freeway. If its more, then its useful only to a limited population.
And this is exactly why it was defeated. Having so many exits is a guaranteed way to create an out of control sprawl monster that would destroy the foothills. This will never happen in any of our lifetimes, if ever.
Why would it sprawl? Just having capacity and exits doesn't mean people will actually go up that way. That's just like the arguments on here where people insist adding one lane to I-85 to South Carolina will result in some kind of explosive population boom.
Why would it sprawl? Just having capacity and exits doesn't mean people will actually go up that way. That's just like the arguments on here where people insist adding one lane to I-85 to South Carolina will result in some kind of explosive population boom.
Were you around when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was about to happen?
It was originally proposed with very limited exits. Then the Counties and well-connected politicians got involved, buying land adjacent to the roads proposed right of way around every little County exit that was added to the design. If you're fine with Barrett Parkway type development up there, you are very much in the minority - and that's exactly what would have happened.
If it's true that the political climate has changed very little in the last two decades, then you're right, the Northern Arc is still DOA. However:
1) The Northern Arc would probably cross Gordon-Pickens-Dawson counties, not Cherokee-Forsyth.
2) Those conservative Democrats are now Republicans.
3) Business interests are even more entrenched in our state politics than they were in the 90s. I have no doubt that they carried a considerable amount of clout over all the express lane expansion plans on 285 and 400.
But you're right, B2R, there would be a lot of people that would fight the Northern Arc tooth and nail. For that reason it may never get built.
I don't know if one could say that the problem would be that the political climate has changed very little in the last 2 decades as much as it appears that the political climate likely seems to have become even more averse to the idea of a Northern Arc-type of highway north of Atlanta in the 18 years or so since then-Governor Roy Barnes backed away from the controversial proposal in 2002, and in the 17 years since then-Governor Sonny Perdue officially cancelled the road in 2003.
That is an excellent point that many of the conservative rural voters who used to vote Democrat now vote pretty much exclusively Republican.
But one thing that probably should be kept in mind is that the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc controversy was (along with the controversy over the changing of the Georgia flag, Governor Barnes' alienation of teachers and public safety workers, etc.) played a leading role in helping to turn over control of Georgia state politics from the Democrats to the Republicans.
The Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc controversy is considered to be such a major paradigm-shifting event in the history of Georgia politics (in that it helped to shift control and dominance of Georgia politics from the Democrats who had been in control for about 130 years since Reconstruction, to an ascendant Republican Party who has now dominated Georgia politics for almost 2 decades), that very few major Georgia politicians will risk their political careers or their party's political standing to push for a controversial road construction project that appears to have much more political downside than upside at this point in time.
… A point in time when Republicans are feeling increased pressure to remain in the majority while Democrats are feeling very ascendant during a period when demographic changes in Georgia's population appear to be favoring increased Democratic Party competitiveness.
It also probably should be kept in mind that the opposition to the Northern Arc (and Outer Perimeter) would feel even more emboldened to oppose a new version of the Northern Arc.
That is because the opposition gained much confidence after successfully defeating the Northern Arc in 2002 and after successfully defeating the T-SPLOST (a transportation funding proposal which was incorrectly rumored to be a back-door way of funding a resurrected Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc) in 2012.
And that is also because the opposition to the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposal and concept is not just confined to the exact area within and along the path where the road is or may be proposed to run, but also includes people who may live from the path of the road in other parts of the Atlanta suburbs and exurbs (where residents worry about other new freeways being run through their communities and where residents worry about increased sprawl and overdevelopment in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains) and in ITP/Intown Atlanta and the five-county core of metro Atlanta (where residents worry that the construction of an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc will pull transit funding and investment away from the urban core).
That is also an excellent point that a new Northern Arc would run farther out from Atlanta in areas like Gordon, Pickens and Dawson counties.
But the opposition to the road likely would be even more intense in those areas than it was when the road was proposed to run through Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties.
That is because counties like Gordon and (especially) Pickens and Dawson are located even deeper within the foothills region and are even closer to the Chattahoochee National Forest and Blue Ridge Mountains region north of Atlanta that local residents and local/regional/national environmentalists are extremely protective of.
Were you around when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was about to happen?
It was originally proposed with very limited exits. Then the Counties and well-connected politicians got involved, buying land adjacent to the roads proposed right of way around every little County exit that was added to the design. If you're fine with Barrett Parkway type development up there, you are very much in the minority - and that's exactly what would have happened.
This.
The main reason why the Mall of Georgia was placed in its location is because that site is immediately adjacent to the proposed path of the Outer Perimeter.
The Outer Perimeter was basically generating heavy development (or "sprawl") along its proposed path years before it was scheduled to be built.
The Mall of Georgia is a prime example of the type of heavy development that the backers of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc intended for the road to generate along its path.
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