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This constant bashing of the situation here vs NC has become ridiculous. It wasn't that long ago that GDOT was a different animal under another Party, and Georgia was rated as having some of the Nation's best highways. This is about the same period as when I-85 through Charlotte was a 6 lane relic from the 60's. Things change, sometimes unfortunately. NC hasn't fared too well either under this new regime, witness the takeover of Buncombe County & Asheville's Water Department as well as the Bathroom Bill.
You keep advocating for highway expansions here that are absolutely not palatable to the Region, period. I don't care how much more beautiful you consider NC to be while accommodating unbridled highway expansion, that simply won't fly here. And I'm sorry, but that Interchange in Raleigh is obnoxious in the amount of land it occupies.
As far as 'stop waving in newcomers' goes, just shut down the Universities - Georgia Tech in particular. That's what's driving this surge in growth, not the incentives for the largest relocations. Nobody is holding a gun to the head of the companies flocking to Atlanta and expanding here, they're coming by choice.
I think what he is more so meaning is a hub and spoke rail network from the core to outlier suburbs which I personally also advocate for as it would assist in giving commuters other options than driving and would also give suburban nodes the ability to become denser and walkable while also promoting employment growth near transit...
I think what he is more so meaning is a hub and spoke rail network from the core to outlier suburbs which I personally also advocate for as it would assist in giving commuters other options than driving and would also give suburban nodes the ability to become denser and walkable while also promoting employment growth near transit... I agree that not everything can be solved by rail but I think the problem that many of us are having with this is they are trying to solve 'everything' by road while transit is still limited to I-285 and I particularly don't think thats going to lead to a bright future. While I get that the metro hasnt seen much in the way of transportation increases within quite some time - you have to look at the fact that nearly all the approved projects to heavily developed suburban areas and their job amenities have completely annihilated anything functional in terms of transit and mainly approved only HOT lanes. I think transit diversity is going to be very necessary as the region continues to grow especially as the metro runs out of room for road placement and improvements. Note that room does not necessarily entail 'open land' but available land without causing environmental impacts, disturbing excessive forestry, or plainly ripping up established neighborhoods.
Another thing worth noting is Atlanta's road layout on the surface roads is just not conducive to be feasible for carrying mass commuters by road, there are too many disconnected streets in the suburbs, too many suburban areas that cannot widen roads and then too many roads that have too many intersections to close together. I.E. the lack of a grid. You may build the highway successfully but as soon as you get off of it you'll still have to deal with all of that and that would be impractical to correct at this point. At this point like I've stated in other posts Atlanta would be much wiser to devise ways to completely bypass driving. If the region does indeed hit 8 million people it would become impractical to design a road system that could appease the masses.
I may just be getting older but if I had the option to commute by rail and skip all of I-85 or GA-400 traffic I would definitely say yes to it.
The outer-perimeter is a different animal as most of us do not hope to envision it as a commuter road (meaning the true concept of the outer-perimeter was not necessarily designed to help commuters in the 60+ mile region in Atlanta's outer suburbs), By our means it was intended as a true bypass and a way to move freight away from the city that wasn't destined for the city, that is needed without any question; however, investors and politicians practically bought up land on the first announcement of the road. By their means it was never intended to be a bypass but rather another inter-commercial & development spur much like I-985, I-575 and GA-400.
Transit diversity IS important. But rail needs to be used where it works well. That would be almost all ITP. There just isn't density to support rail. Express bus (or BRT) using HOT lanes is faster, cheaper and more efficient than rail once you get much outside ITP. It doesn't have to make a bunch of stops along the way to get enough riders, so it gets there quicker and it drops you off closer to your destination.
As for the outer perimeter, it is needed as a bypass. But people are already out there and traveling suburb to suburb. Its needed for their commute.
Transit diversity IS important. But rail needs to be used where it works well. That would be almost all ITP. There just isn't density to support rail. Express bus (or BRT) using HOT lanes is faster, cheaper and more efficient than rail once you get much outside ITP. It doesn't have to make a bunch of stops along the way to get enough riders, so it gets there quicker and it drops you off closer to your destination.
As for the outer perimeter, it is needed as a bypass. But people are already out there and traveling suburb to suburb. Its needed for their commute.
Basically here is where my mindset is currently...
I don't want a way to improve traffic any longer.
I want a way to BEAT traffic.
Yes I am aware... of what you mean by the bolded... but I am more so concerned about the Atlanta metro of tomorrow than today. You are speaking of enhancing low density developments all throughout the rural suburban areas of which Atlanta's metro and infrastructure can only accommodate so much for in a realistic manner that doesn't throw the metro's qualities off balance.
In short, I don't desire to continue to enhance commutes between suburban nodes by throwing up toll-roads everywhere...or atleast especially not as an only means of commuting. They are convenient I will not lie and I use them in Austin so I know this sounds hypocritical but they don't come without major side effects especially in a mono-transit environment. I used to want them but I see what happens when you do that. It isn't just induced demand, but also mal-use of resources and land while the metro as a whole continues to grow while populations become completely dependent on utterly long suburban to city commutes while demand continues to increase and the metro continues to swell. You can only cater to low density for so long before it boils over in a high demand market... After the region is filled with 8 million people and the foothills are ravaged with SFH's and tollroads, where else are you going to build while people continue to come? It would wreck the environment and qualities of life. What I would much rather see is Atlanta get a head start on the FUTURE by providing the frameworks necessary for high density living rather than addressing the transportation issues of today while trying to mimic Texas and North Carolina. Innovation in transportation would make Atlanta seriously stand out in the south and will just as easily attract plenty of corporations around transit centers.
Note in this I have never condemned drivers and told everyone to pay tolls, I just want to see a larger change in the way we both live and commute. This way of sprawling and consuming more and more land and resources while commuting further and further can only go so far. Everyone complains we need to build more highways and need more lanes, if the city supplies them they're content until they run out of capacity again...then more lanes, more highways... I would rather see some of us accept that we are not living efficiently and seek alternative means. There is no way Atlanta's current road infrastructure, toll lanes and outer bypass included, would be sufficient at handling 8 million people +, and the costs to redesign every suburban bottle neck to handle as such would be astronomical if not completely impractical.
I'm basically stating I would much rather Atlanta be ready for the future of a massive influx of people by preparing a way for people to live CLOSER to jobs, Have the ABILITY to commute without needing to sit in traffic, while preserving as much of the natural scenery as possible rather than sprawling everywhere they can possibly think of and asking for more highways later on when it would be completely impractical.
DFW & Houston are more capable of that for reasons:
#1 They use less square footage than than most Atlanta's suburban neighborhoods meaning you have more density in SFH's where one of the key tokens in Atlanta's housing IS the acreage you receive.
#2 They have virtually infinite land to sprawl with very little environmental impact especially in comparison to the Blueridge. I'm not bashing DFW but going north of Frisco there is literally nothing but empty flat land all the way to Oklahoma...and DFW has every intent on developing ALL the way to Oklahoma given they approved DNT to U.S. 75 about 15 miles south of the state line. (I don't think this is a good idea btw.. I think DFW could also stand to become denser.).
#3 Its plainly much easier to build tollroads around DFW and Houston than it is Atlanta...
I have no 0 issue with Atlanta saying no to upgrading highways IF they give us a way to bypass traffic because roads should not be the only way people should be willing to commute.
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Originally Posted by bu2
Well if Georgia Tech supplies Georgia's traffic engineers, we probably do need to shut down that department.
Georgia's roads still are rated good-for pavement quality.
Georgia didn't do anything on its roads for 25 years, long before the politicians changed their label from D to R. That is the problem here.
Its true that Georgia hasn't done as much for roads, politically, neglectfully...it doesn't matter at this point, you're looking for a magic wand to reverse all the damage and I'm telling you at this point that is impossible.. it would be much better to seek alternatives rather than wishing for something that is not going to come to past and be completely unprepared for the next wave of population expansion.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 02-20-2020 at 08:05 PM..
Its true that Georgia hasn't done as much for roads, politically, neglectfully...it doesn't matter at this point, you're looking for a magic wand to reverse all the damage and I'm telling you at this point that is impossible.. it would be much better to seek alternatives rather than wishing for something that is not going to come to past and be completely unprepared for the next wave of population expansion.
Which is why people wishing for the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc are deluding themselves at this point. There is virtually zero chance that those original proposals will ever see the light of day.
I think what he is more so meaning is a hub and spoke rail network from the core to outlier suburbs which I personally also advocate for as it would assist in giving commuters other options than driving and would also give suburban nodes the ability to become denser and walkable while also promoting employment growth near transit...
Yes, it would help with far-distant commuting to the core, which is probably not a very large amount of people. It would not help with commuting around the northern region, which is where the problem lies.
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Another thing worth noting is Atlanta's road layout on the surface roads is just not conducive to be feasible for carrying mass commuters by road, there are too many disconnected streets in the suburbs, too many suburban areas that cannot widen roads and then too many roads that have too many intersections to close together.
This is absolutely true. It's one of the biggest reasons for congestion here. When you have to make 13 turns in every direction to go four miles in a straight line, it's going to vastly increase the time to do so. And when things are slowed, congestion builds.
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I may just be getting older but if I had the option to commute by rail and skip all of I-85 or GA-400 traffic I would definitely say yes to it.
I would, too. But it would have to be pretty close to door-to-door (within half a mile on each end) and not take four times as long with three transfers.
Quote:
The outer-perimeter is a different animal as most of us do not hope to envision it as a commuter road (meaning the true concept of the outer-perimeter was not necessarily designed to help commuters in the 60+ mile region in Atlanta's outer suburbs), By our means it was intended as a true bypass and a way to move freight away from the city that wasn't destined for the city, that is needed without any question; however, investors and politicians practically bought up land on the first announcement of the road. By their means it was never intended to be a bypass but rather another inter-commercial & development spur much like I-985, I-575 and GA-400.
No, I never saw it as a commuting road, as in "i need to get to my job at rush hour" road. It's a connection between all of the areas in the northern half of the metro. People travel back and forth between them for all sorts of things daily, which may have nothing to do with actual "commuting". Commuting should not be the only thing we design transit for, as that is just one part of the reason people move from place to place.
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