North Fulton transportation projects aim to ease commutes, give alternatives (Atlanta: job market, live)

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

Most people commute by car and if you force them onto mass transit the jobs will move to where they can commute. Adding lanes isn't great, but it's the only real world solution they have. The great solutions needed to happen 20+ years ago, but the state didn't widen/redesign the highways and metro Atlanta didn't build rail to Windward. We're stuck.

MARTA rail expansion isn't going to happen outside of the City of Atlanta, bus ridership is falling dramatically, and the costs for new bus only lanes is equal to the cost of toll lanes. At least the toll lanes will generate money to payback the costs.

These toll lanes will not and won’t be designed to recoup their costs.

[brown_dog_us]

Originally Posted by Gulch

These toll lanes will not and won’t be designed to recoup their costs.

You are right. I should have said the toll lanes would recoup more of the costs than mass transit fares.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Yeah but will the toll lanes really do any better? I'm looking at a grand scope beyond just this decade. Sure it will solve a 'now' problem. But after a decade what are they going to do when that area is fully maxed out, MARTA rail blocked out and no where to increase road capacity?

If that area wasn't so developed and more roads could be implemented (and it isnt just the need for more roads but more importantly better designs in the aspect of thru arteries rather than roads that end every 4 blocks) .. thing is they are already nearly at a point where that will be impossible. So even if they widen 400 what's going to happen after that? That wont be enough. Transit in America in general has to be artificially stimulated to succeed. That means providing those routes then promoting ridership over arteries that are filled to capacity by making it more viable and attractive than driving such as busses that have right of way over signalized intersections, ect. Atlantas infrastructure cannot handle the road capacity of a metro wanting to go 7 - 8 + million without a sophisticated transit system. That's asking for a disaster even if they threw every dime they had at the roads...the very core of which they are designed makes that impractical. They NEED rail service too.

There is tons of vacant land for improving roads in North Fulton.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by bu2

There is tons of vacant land for improving roads in North Fulton.

Where?

[brown_dog_us]

Originally Posted by Gulch

Where?

400 and the bigger surface streets generally have room. On 400 it would mean removing a lot of trees. The problem is widening one road just means the next one down the commute gets worse.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Gulch

Where?

All over Roswell, Alpharetta and Milton.

Atlanta MSA is not nearly as densely developed as other metros outside the southeast. Even newer cities like Houston, Dallas and Phoenix.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

From midtown to Windward is where the jobs are, and the State has to start improving access to the area or growth will come to a halt. Mass transit sounds great but it won't serve that area without a massive influx of money that doesn't exist. Also, mass transit ridership numbers are in a free fall.

There are still tens of thousands of jobs in Downtown. Not to mention Clifton Corridor and Airport.

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

Most people commute by car and if you force them onto mass transit the jobs will move to where they can commute. Adding lanes isn't great, but it's the only real world solution they have. The great solutions needed to happen 20+ years ago, but the state didn't widen/redesign the highways and metro Atlanta didn't build rail to Windward. We're stuck.

MARTA rail expansion isn't going to happen outside of the City of Atlanta, bus ridership is falling dramatically, and the costs for new bus only lanes is equal to the cost of toll lanes. At least the toll lanes will generate money to payback the costs.

Bus ridership is falling because the bus speeds have dropped due to increased traffic congestion.
Running BRT in all the Express lanes would get metro Atlanta a quick and efficient transit network using existing and planned toll lanes. It is a huge mistake not to include BRT in these Express Lane projects.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

There are still tens of thousands of jobs in Downtown. Not to mention Clifton Corridor and Airport.


Bus ridership is falling because the bus speeds have dropped due to increased traffic congestion.
Running BRT in all the Express lanes would get metro Atlanta a quick and efficient transit network using existing and planned toll lanes. It is a huge mistake not to include BRT in these Express Lane projects.

Mass transit ridership is falling all over the country. Seattle (who is spending massively) and Houston (who dramatically redesigned and increased frequency of bus routes) are the only exceptions.

Driving is vastly faster and more convenient for most people. As people can afford cars, except for a handful of cities, they choose driving. That is the #1 reason people quit using mass transit. They bought a car.

Outside of those few cities (NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, SF https://www.newgeography.com/content...-legacy-cities), transit needs to be fast. BRT can provide that in certain corridors, but express buses are a better choice in less dense areas as they have fewer stops. They can stop once to connect to a rail or BRT for a transfer and not stop 5-10 times on the way downtown (or Buckhead or Perimeter Mall). That one stop for a transfer is why I wish MARTA would be extended from Indian Creek down 285 to near the I-20 intersection. The plan on the map requires 2 transfers to get to the rail and that just kills discretionary ridership.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

Mass transit ridership is falling all over the country. Seattle (who is spending massively) and Houston (who dramatically redesigned and increased frequency of bus routes) are the only exceptions.

Driving is vastly faster and more convenient for most people. As people can afford cars, except for a handful of cities, they choose driving. That is the #1 reason people quit using mass transit. They bought a car.

Outside of those few cities (NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, SF https://www.newgeography.com/content...-legacy-cities), transit needs to be fast. BRT can provide that in certain corridors, but express buses are a better choice in less dense areas as they have fewer stops. They can stop once to connect to a rail or BRT for a transfer and not stop 5-10 times on the way downtown (or Buckhead or Perimeter Mall). That one stop for a transfer is why I wish MARTA would be extended from Indian Creek down 285 to near the I-20 intersection. The plan on the map requires 2 transfers to get to the rail and that just kills discretionary ridership.

I never said it should one vs the other, both can use the Express lane system. I am sure the Xpress buses will continue to serve P&R lots along 400 after the Express Lanes are built and MARTA BRT is using them. But on corridors like 400 &-285 operating BRT makes sense to move people in & out. Adding BRT to the I-285 Express Lanes would bring a efficient transit to communities along it; Smyrna, Vinings, Cumberland, Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, Brookhaven, Doraville, Northlake, Tucker, Clarkston, etc. These communities need more than just peak-hour, one way Express Bus service. Especially since I-285 Express Lane will be two-way.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

I never said it should one vs the other, both can use the Express lane system. I am sure the Xpress buses will continue to serve P&R lots along 400 after the Express Lanes are built and MARTA BRT is using them. But on corridors like 400 &-285 operating BRT makes sense to move people in & out. Adding BRT to the I-285 Express Lanes would bring a efficient transit to communities along it; Smyrna, Vinings, Cumberland, Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, Brookhaven, Doraville, Northlake, Tucker, Clarkston, etc. These communities need more than just peak-hour, one way Express Bus service. Especially since I-285 Express Lane will be two-way.

285 is a place where BRT would seem to make sense. Its not as much of a point to point corridor where you have a mass of origins or destinations.