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Old 08-03-2019, 07:55 PM
 
3,180 posts, read 1,482,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
jsvh has a point.

While it is certainly possible to fall onto hard times, and maybe even go through every safety net you have, almost anybody who has their senses about them would be on the street for a very shot amount of time.

Involuntary institutionalization may be the best option for people who require inpatient mental health care because they are non-compliant with their therapies, or never got proper therapies prescribed. This is likely well more than 50% of the homeless population.

If they can get stabilized and stay that way, many of them would have a chance of actually getting off the street. Some of them, unfortunately, have been neglected for so long, they would likely be unable to ever get their lives together even if they were stabilized because they have limited/no work history and possibly criminal records.

It's not illegal to be homeless. But maybe... it should be? If police could arrest anyone who is sleeping on the street and judges understood how to route the cases to the places that could help the best (not jail), maybe we could make a dent in the problem. That's just a thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
Why would it have to be illegal and require arresting people? If we had good, useful, funded places to help people like this, they would probably use it. Not many would choose to live on the street if there were a place with a bed, food, and help available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
It is my understanding that many of the people who require mental health services have been evaluated, have been treated, and are non-compliant with their therapies.

Therefore, it would stand to reason that temporarily incarcerating/institutionalizing them long enough to force treatment to get them stable might help them get to the point where they would remain compliant.

These benefits ARE available to many people, but they do choose not to use them. Yeah, those places could be better, but I'm not convinced that would make people more likely to seek them out.

1) ATLTJL-I respectfully disagree. I don't know what I would do without my family. I think you'd probably see me homeless. I can't tell you how hard it is to survive on minimum wage. In GA the most I've earned is $11 per hour and even that wasn't enough for me to afford a place on my own, especially when after holidays and before, my hours were cut down to almost nothing. Most Millennials I know have a ton of roommates or live with family. Not everyone has friends/family they can rely on.



You touched on criminal records. If "maybe should be" they are arrested, this will give them a criminal record. A criminal record, if you don't already know, begins from an arrest even if the charges are dropped; judging by the fact the system punishes poor people, most of these black, Hispanic, poor white men will not be able to afford a lawyer and so the charges will likely stand. A criminal record prevents many from getting jobs and becoming business owners (state licensing discrimination), thus contributing to their homelessness. I should also add housing discrimination and educational (not being accepted into university/eligible for federal loans/grants). Mass incarceration is a crisis and so I'd be very careful to suggest even if "maybe" that anyone should be arrested for being homeless as studies indicate this is harmful and does not help the situation.



2) Samiwas1-Yes, I wish there were well-funded places. It's crazy that there are people who can buy islands in this country, yet we have people who need a home sleeping on the streets.



3) ATLTJL-You bring up a good point regarding the people who refuse treatment. In GA, there are people who are certified to have those who are homeless (mentally ill) hospitalized against their will if they present a danger to themselves and/or others. I'm not sure if they can institutionalize them, however. I do hope that in the future more can be done to address mental illness and the stigma that comes with it. We have a war on drugs that is preventing federal research/well funded studies into medicine that may be able to better help people with mental illness.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:22 PM
 
Location: 30080
2,236 posts, read 3,547,689 times
Reputation: 1672
Yea, lets get those gross people out of here. Meanwhile, the cost of living for rental units has doubled in the past 10 years while the cost of living hasn't come even close to that. But, let's ignore that fact. That issue is going to get much worse here before it gets better.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:44 PM
 
10,647 posts, read 7,581,210 times
Reputation: 3327
Having people sleep on the streets should not be the solution to expensive housing. The solution to that is legalizing more housing via zoning and a Basic Income.

Putting people in jail should be a last resort. But it should not be excluded because it is better than having people sleeping on the streets without food, water, and healthcare.

By all means, please focus on getting people the support they need before it gets to that point, but if those other safety nets fail them having people institutionalized is better than on the street.
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Old 08-04-2019, 05:19 PM
 
5,157 posts, read 3,349,948 times
Reputation: 3423
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Having people sleep on the streets should not be the solution to expensive housing. The solution to that is legalizing more housing via zoning and a Basic Income.

Putting people in jail should be a last resort. But it should not be excluded because it is better than having people sleeping on the streets without food, water, and healthcare.

By all means, please focus on getting people the support they need before it gets to that point, but if those other safety nets fail them having people institutionalized is better than on the street.
Why jail? A shelter is the same thing you describe, but doesn't lock them behind bars, unable to leave and better themselves in the process. A jail leaves them almost no option to try to find a job or anything else. Terrible idea.
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Old 08-04-2019, 06:35 PM
 
10,647 posts, read 7,581,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
Why jail? A shelter is the same thing you describe, but doesn't lock them behind bars, unable to leave and better themselves in the process. A jail leaves them almost no option to try to find a job or anything else. Terrible idea.
Because jail is better than sleeping on the streets.

Shelters are not doing a sufficient job of providing for all these people still on the streets.

They also do not provide health care and most do not provide food nor shelter during the day. Only at night.

If you are able to improve shelters where it is keeping people off the streets then please do. It would also means that no one would be subjected to being sent away since they are no longer on the streets. But being jailed is still better than being on the streets until improving shelters is figured out.

Also, many jails do provide career programs and learning opportunities.
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:08 PM
 
5,157 posts, read 3,349,948 times
Reputation: 3423
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Because jail is better than sleeping on the streets.

Shelters are not doing a sufficient job of providing for all these people still on the streets.

They also do not provide health care and most do not provide food nor shelter during the day. Only at night.

If you are able to improve shelters where it is keeping people off the streets then please do. It would also means that no one would be subjected to being sent away since they are no longer on the streets. But being jailed is still better than being on the streets until improving shelters is figured out.

Also, many jails do provide career programs and learning opportunities.
It was patently obvious that I meant having shelters that provided the necessary services. Putting people behind bars for being homeless is simply cruel. I cannot fathom thinking that is a better option than having shelters which provide the same services but didn't put them in locked cages. This really makes me think...
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
5,602 posts, read 4,165,289 times
Reputation: 7450
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
From what I've read here, these wimpy hotel guests need to mentally toughen up and recognize they are in an urban setting. Walk with confidence, keep your head on a swivel and don't let it be known that you may have valuables.
You really think that the guests in hotels should have to toughen up? Let's see how long tourism lasts with that kind of environment. Do you like to go visit a city and have to always stay vigilant all the time rather than enjoy your stay?
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Old 08-04-2019, 09:53 PM
 
10,647 posts, read 7,581,210 times
Reputation: 3327
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
It was patently obvious that I meant having shelters that provided the necessary services. Putting people behind bars for being homeless is simply cruel. I cannot fathom thinking that is a better option than having shelters which provide the same services but didn't put them in locked cages. This really makes me think...
If someone can make that happen then great. I have been a part of non-profits trying to do that but obviously they have not been successful in solving it on their own. Please take the lead and make that happen. Laws jailing people sleeping on the streets could still exist but would never need to be used since all the homeless have shelters. Your idea is not mutually exclusive, we can do both to ensure people are provided for regardless.

I am not advocating pulling people out of shelters and putting them in jail. Only those that have been failed by shelters and are sleeping on the street.

Until we get sufficient shelters that can provide for all those in need, or if that fails, we still need a back-stop to provide at least shelter, food, water, and healthcare to those sleeping on the street.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:03 AM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
7,919 posts, read 12,212,329 times
Reputation: 5726
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Think I am deciding we need to have a backstop to end homelessness. We need to make trespassing / loitering / sleeping on public property an accelerating misdemeanor offense. First violation $200 or 24 hours in jail. Next violation goes to a week in jail, then a month.
This would be exceedingly cruel and most likely in direct violation of the 8th Amendment to the Constitution. No one, literally no one, lives on the streets of major cities because they want to. They are there because they have run out of options and have no one to fall back on for various reasons.

Imagine if you will that you had no family or close friends. You lose your job, have no savings, and you find yourself in a bind for a day or two. You don't have enough money even for a cheap motel, so you go down to the homeless shelter to grab a bed while you sort things out. There's only one problem: You got there too late and all of the beds have been taken. In this (very common and not even far fetched) scenario you're only left with the option of finding someplace on the street to stay for the night.

In your system, you're either going to jail (and have to find a way to bail out) or you now have to figure out a way to pay $200. How pray tell would someone in that situation pay for such a bill? Should we then jail them at a far greater expense than just opening additional homeless shelters because they are now debtors? What crime are we actually punishing here, the crime of having bad luck?

How does this even begin to fix the problem of aggressive panhandling, particularly for those aggressive panhandlers (which if you ask me are larger percentage than you think) aren't even homeless?
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:10 AM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
7,919 posts, read 12,212,329 times
Reputation: 5726
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamerD View Post
Uh no...How can you justify locking someone up for being homeless? They're homeless...where else are they suppose to sleep at night? Jail should never be an option unless they are being violent. People hate seeing the homeless because they are a reminder of the things we like to ignore in society-mental illness, economic despair, etc.
1 million % yes

It is a true shame that some people only consider the worst of a segment of society when deciding how to deal with something. Yes, there are homeless people that are violent and commit actual crimes, but this isn't because they are homeless. It is because they are crappy people that would do it even if they had a house over their head.

Should we punish the entirety of the homeless community who are in their situation because they have literally run out of viable options because of a few jerks?
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