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Old 08-05-2019, 08:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post


Because jail is better than sleeping on the streets.
This is America!
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
12,400 posts, read 7,572,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Scientist View Post
The hotels can contribute money and build some more facilities for the homeless.
Or the "homeless" parasites can be furnished with living quarters -- the kind with guard towers and bars.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:22 PM
 
3,185 posts, read 1,484,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Because jail is better than sleeping on the streets.

Shelters are not doing a sufficient job of providing for all these people still on the streets.

They also do not provide health care and most do not provide food nor shelter during the day. Only at night.

If you are able to improve shelters where it is keeping people off the streets then please do. It would also means that no one would be subjected to being sent away since they are no longer on the streets. But being jailed is still better than being on the streets until improving shelters is figured out.

Also, many jails do provide career programs and learning opportunities.

This is a HUGE assumption. Knowing what I know about jails/prisons, many would disagree. There seems to be this myth that jail is nice. You've got a bed, t.v., etc., and are living it up. It's the total opposite.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:33 PM
 
3,185 posts, read 1,484,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
This would be exceedingly cruel and most likely in direct violation of the 8th Amendment to the Constitution. No one, literally no one, lives on the streets of major cities because they want to. They are there because they have run out of options and have no one to fall back on for various reasons.

Imagine if you will that you had no family or close friends. You lose your job, have no savings, and you find yourself in a bind for a day or two. You don't have enough money even for a cheap motel, so you go down to the homeless shelter to grab a bed while you sort things out. There's only one problem: You got there too late and all of the beds have been taken. In this (very common and not even far fetched) scenario you're only left with the option of finding someplace on the street to stay for the night.

In your system, you're either going to jail (and have to find a way to bail out) or you now have to figure out a way to pay $200.
How pray tell would someone in that situation pay for such a bill? Should we then jail them at a far greater expense than just opening additional homeless shelters because they are now debtors? What crime are we actually punishing here, the crime of having bad luck?

How does this even begin to fix the problem of aggressive panhandling, particularly for those aggressive panhandlers (which if you ask me are larger percentage than you think) aren't even homeless?

Yes! These are very pressing issues we need to face as a country because the mass incarceration of poor people, with a disproportionate number being black men, is being driven by a complete disregard of many Amendments, including what you mentioned, the 4th Amendment, etc. We need to look deep at how these injustices have been allowed. This is another reason why jail should never be considered an option. This is the only country that incarcerates its people to the degree it does and this kind of mentality that we should lock up our most vulnerable because they are less than, inferior, innately bad people, etc., is the kind of thinking and action that are so dangerous to the US. It is the kind of mindset that promotes slavery in all of its forms and legal discrimination. We must call these things out lest we allow the country to go back 4 centuries.



Thank you for providing the example you did. Something else that people need to dig deep about is this whole notion that if you're poor, it's because of bad moral character whereas if you are wealthy, you must have pulled yourself up by the bootstraps, be hard working, and the sun shines out of your a**.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:06 PM
 
29,502 posts, read 26,501,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
This would be exceedingly cruel and most likely in direct violation of the 8th Amendment to the Constitution. No one, literally no one, lives on the streets of major cities because they want to. They are there because they have run out of options and have no one to fall back on for various reasons.

Imagine if you will that you had no family or close friends. You lose your job, have no savings, and you find yourself in a bind for a day or two. You don't have enough money even for a cheap motel, so you go down to the homeless shelter to grab a bed while you sort things out. There's only one problem: You got there too late and all of the beds have been taken. In this (very common and not even far fetched) scenario you're only left with the option of finding someplace on the street to stay for the night.

In your system, you're either going to jail (and have to find a way to bail out) or you now have to figure out a way to pay $200. How pray tell would someone in that situation pay for such a bill? Should we then jail them at a far greater expense than just opening additional homeless shelters because they are now debtors? What crime are we actually punishing here, the crime of having bad luck?

How does this even begin to fix the problem of aggressive panhandling, particularly for those aggressive panhandlers (which if you ask me are larger percentage than you think) aren't even homeless?
I agree! You can arrest somebody for committing a crime but not just for being homeless. As you say, it's easy to find yourself out of options.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:47 PM
bu2
 
10,173 posts, read 6,526,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
I agree! You can arrest somebody for committing a crime but not just for being homeless. As you say, it's easy to find yourself out of options.
The long term homeless are overwhelmingly mentally ill. None of your solutions do anything about that.
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:01 PM
 
2,255 posts, read 891,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
The long term homeless are overwhelmingly mentally ill. None of your solutions do anything about that.
Yeah but what good is jailing someone who's mentally ill? Can someone not in his correct state of mind due to mental illness even be tried by law? Those people need help not jail. They're not even of the mindset to realize how much they need help, especially if they are manic or bipolar.

Besides we can forget about the idea of jailing every homeless person on the street. It would never pass. It would put too much a burden on existing jails while also sharing that burden with Tax Payers. it would never fly.

I personally think these people should be admitted and homed into institutions dedicated for these causes with the intent on behavioral correction and the hopeful intent on getting them on their feet.

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 08-05-2019 at 03:12 PM..
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:09 PM
 
8,390 posts, read 10,347,471 times
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I think that's what we're talking about, N4C.

But you can't force people into institutions. We're talking about perhaps changing that. If these people are arrested, they will be put into the system and a judge will place them in custody of the state. That doesn't have to mean jail, it could just mean institutionalization.

You know, like when someone is arrested on drug charges and they are court ordered to go into rehab. We're talking about court ordered mental health and drug abuse care, not jail. You wouldn't go to jail simply for being homeless.
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:10 PM
bu2
 
10,173 posts, read 6,526,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Yeah but what good is jailing someone who's mentally ill? Can someone not in his correct state of mind due to mental illness even be tried by law? Those people need help not jail. They're not even of the mindset to realize how much they need help, especially if they are manic or bipolar.

Besides we can forget about the idea of jailing every homeless person on the street. It would never pass. It would put too much a burden on existing jails while also sharing that burden with Tax Payers. it would never fly.

I personally think these people should be admitted and homed into institutions dedicated for these causes.
I don't know the solution, but jailing them or effectively jailing them by institutionalizing them as was done 50 years ago, are not the solutions.

Neither is enabling them by encouraging panhandling.
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:41 PM
 
2,255 posts, read 891,133 times
Reputation: 1764
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
I think that's what we're talking about, N4C.

But you can't force people into institutions. We're talking about perhaps changing that. If these people are arrested, they will be put into the system and a judge will place them in custody of the state. That doesn't have to mean jail, it could just mean institutionalization.

You know, like when someone is arrested on drug charges and they are court ordered to go into rehab. We're talking about court ordered mental health and drug abuse care, not jail. You wouldn't go to jail simply for being homeless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
I don't know the solution, but jailing them or effectively jailing them by institutionalizing them as was done 50 years ago, are not the solutions.

Neither is enabling them by encouraging panhandling.
For some reason I don't like the idea of being 'arrested' - although they definitely do need to be 'admitted' if that makes sense... don't want to make them feel criminal or especially treated like criminals and I just get a bad vibe that (although I agree they need to be institutionalized) the system and people will be abused. Alot of those people do not go to shelters because of what really happens there. (drugs, needles, other very bad things if you're a woman for the lack of easier ways of explaining) and I can't help but feel that alot of these people will be abused by a government system and treated like individuals without rights.

In a ideal world though... without getting too deep into politics - instead of us spending billions on other nations and walls - fix the problems right here on homeland by developing institutions dedicated for these people rather than neglecting them and putting them out of sight out of mind.
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