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Old 08-11-2019, 04:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joey86 View Post
When the criteria for imprisonment is “sleeping on the street” you are clearly talking about locking up people for being homeless.
What would you like the response to be when someone starts sleeping on the sidewalk in front of your door or street in front of your driveway every night? Fine them?

Many of these people clearly need help and are not able to provide for themselves. Confining them somewhere with access to food, water, shelter, healthcare, and hopefully other services is probably the most humane thing we can do.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:42 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
What would you like the response to be when someone starts sleeping on the sidewalk in front of your door or street in front of your driveway every night? Fine them?

Many of these people clearly need help and are not able to provide for themselves. Confining them somewhere with access to food, water, shelter, healthcare, and hopefully other services is probably the most humane thing we can do.
Its a free country. Unless they are a threat to others or direct threat to themselves, you need to let them make their own decisions. But we need to figure out how to do a better job guiding them to better alternatives.
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Its a free country. Unless they are a threat to others or direct threat to themselves, you need to let them make their own decisions. But we need to figure out how to do a better job guiding them to better alternatives.
So you are fine leaving your car parked indefinitely if someone sets up camp in the street at the end of your driveway? What if they are blocking emergency vehicles or wheelchair access on the sidewalk?
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
So you are fine leaving your car parked indefinitely if someone sets up camp in the street at the end of your driveway? What if they are blocking emergency vehicles or wheelchair access on the sidewalk?
Yeah! Yeah! And what if they stab somebody in the face??? What if they sacrifice a dog in front of a preschool?!?

Your original statement was essentially that all homeless should be imprisoned, apparently for their own good. Now, you've backtracked into those that "break laws". But, you're repeatedly trying to frame it as if most homeless break enough laws that they should be imprisoned against their will, behind bars, and keep trying to throw out all these scenarios to justify your original position. I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make other than that we should imprison most homeless people.

I just finished watching "The Great Hack". I see a lot of similarities.
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
Your original statement was essentially that all homeless should be imprisoned, apparently for their own good. Now, you've backtracked into those that "break laws". But, you're repeatedly trying to frame it as if most homeless break enough laws that they should be imprisoned against their will, behind bars, and keep trying to throw out all these scenarios to justify your original position. I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make other than that we should imprison most homeless people.
You misunderstood my "original statement" then. My intent is to enforce the laws (and likely update the laws). I think more important to also offer a "minimum security shelter" that anyone can utilize by choice for free and also can be where people guilty of these sort of minor crimes can be sent to get access to at least basic essentials they lack and hopefully more.

So, Sam, what would you like to be the response if someone sets up camp in the street at the end of your driveway? What if they are blocking emergency vehicles or wheelchair access on the sidewalk? These are not hypothetical questions you know. These things happen every day in the city. Doorways, sidewalks, driveways blocked by people camped out on the streets.

Last edited by jsvh; 08-11-2019 at 10:07 PM..
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
So, Sam, what would you like to be the response if someone sets up camp in the street at the end of your driveway? What if they are blocking emergency vehicles or wheelchair access on the sidewalk? These are not hypothetical questions you know. These things happen every day in the city. Doorways, sidewalks, driveways blocked by people camped out on the streets.
Public execution.

Wait, no. That's not actually what I meant. That's just what you read. You misinterpreted it. I didn't say anything about execution. Fake news! Liberal conspiracy!

I am sure there is a huge problem of homeless people building a camp in driveways and blocking streets for emergency vehicles. I've said it (and so have many others) numbers times: if someone is breaking the law or egregiously and repeatedly taking over an area to the detriment of others, then we can possibly put them in minimum security jail overnight. Some guy sleeping under a bridge or on a park bench? Nope. Provide shelters with food and help, through charity. No need for jails or police officers or courts or anything else.

This really isn't that hard.

As for misunderstanding:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
We need to make trespassing / loitering / sleeping on public property an accelerating misdemeanor offense. First violation $200 or 24 hours in jail. Next violation goes to a week in jail, then a month.

These people sleeping on the streets are doing no one any good. We at least need to get them sheltered and provided with food, water, and basic medical care even if it is in prison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Putting people in jail should be a last resort. But it should not be excluded because it is better than having people sleeping on the streets without food, water, and healthcare.

By all means, please focus on getting people the support they need before it gets to that point, but if those other safety nets fail them having people institutionalized is better than on the street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Because jail is better than sleeping on the streets.

But being jailed is still better than being on the streets until improving shelters is figured out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I am not advocating pulling people out of shelters and putting them in jail. Only those that have been failed by shelters and are sleeping on the street.

Until we get sufficient shelters that can provide for all those in need, or if that fails, we still need a back-stop to provide at least shelter, food, water, and healthcare to those sleeping on the street.
Yeah, how could I have possibly misunderstood that you didn't actually mean jailing people just for being on the street?
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:02 PM
 
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You (mostly seem to) understand the consequence I am proposing. You are misunderstanding the cause / trigger I am proposing. No one should be confined against their will without having broken a law. We just need to update the laws / enforce existing laws. I am also liking the idea of a "minimum security shelter" option for these crimes instead of full on prison.

But it sounds like mostly we agree. 24 hours confinement for the first violation is exactly what I proposed.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
But it sounds like mostly we agree. 24 hours confinement for the first violation is exactly what I proposed.
Maybe in the absolute vaguest of terms. I think by your "we need to update the laws", you're wanting to make more things a crime that the homeless can be locked up for.

Suffice to say, I think you want to see many more homeless jailed than I do, and so no, I do not think we mostly agree. My threshold for what would rise to the level of jail is much higher than yours.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
Maybe in the absolute vaguest of terms. I think by your "we need to update the laws", you're wanting to make more things a crime that the homeless can be locked up for.

Suffice to say, I think you want to see many more homeless jailed than I do, and so no, I do not think we mostly agree. My threshold for what would rise to the level of jail is much higher than yours.
You want to send them to jail if they are blocking use of your car, but not if they are blocking use of a park? If a group of people setup a permanent encampment in the play structure of your child's favorite park, you think there should be nothing done about it? Also, Where on the street is acceptable for them, and where is not in your mind?

At least I want to provide "minimum security shelters" for them to be sent to, not "jail".
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:50 AM
 
5,219 posts, read 3,374,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
You want to send them to jail if they are blocking use of your car, but not if they are blocking use of a park? If a group of people setup a permanent encampment in the play structure of your child's favorite park, you think there should be nothing done about it? Also, Where on the street is acceptable for them, and where is not in your mind?

At least I want to provide "minimum security shelters" for them to be sent to, not "jail".
I have no idea where you got any of this. Where did I say blocking a car is bad, but a playground is good. I think I've bene pretty clear. It's really not as hard as you're making it. In 99% of cases, you simply get them to move. You don't have to restrain them or put them behind bars. If they repeatedly refuse, or become violent, then you can charge them with trespassing. And only in that case would you have to resort to "locked minimum security involuntary shelters", which sound almost exactly like "jail".

People sleeping under a bridge or in an alley or on an empty lot are not causing anyone any harm, as long as they are keeping to themselves and not leaving a mess. I see zero reason they should be forced into jai...sorry "minimum security shelters".
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