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Old 08-14-2019, 05:25 PM
 
84 posts, read 34,426 times
Reputation: 115

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
There is a section of I-20 east of the city that is more N-S than it is E-W and I don't see any barrier that would have prevented a more direct route. Are you disputing the direct quotes from Hartsfield?





Such as?



One glaring barrier immediately stands out to me----East Lake Golf Club.

 
Old 08-15-2019, 06:06 AM
 
8,425 posts, read 10,387,379 times
Reputation: 6558
Quote:
The author of the article actually wrote a book about all of this stuff
So what?

Anybody can write a book on anything. There's no book authority out there that prevents people from putting false information in books an publishing them.

In any case, this guy is highly credentialed. I don't think that's at issue here. The point is, he's picking a couple of very specific things to assign blame for a highly complex problem that has many different causes. Yes, he DOES make some points, but he is weighing them way too heavily as explanations for the big picture. Just because he went to Princeton doesn't mean he knows everything. There's still a lot of expert opinion that goes into explaining this type of thing, and as we all know, experts often disagree.

I think it's clear from the writing style that he has an agenda. Just as a quick example:
Quote:
By the mid-1980s, white racists were joking that MARTA, with its heavily black ridership, stood for “Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta.”
I'm not going to defend this joke in 2019, but it's definitely a loaded thing to say it was said by "white racists" because anyone who lived in Atlanta at that time knows how common this joke was. Not EVERYONE who said it was racist. Heck, I even heard plenty of black people say it. Does that mean they were all racists?

Much of what this man writes is colored by his own bias. Just like everyone else. It's one perspective.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 08:21 AM
 
913 posts, read 374,572 times
Reputation: 627
This is so dumb. 85 North used to stop at the Clairmont Rd exit and when it expanded it sliced right through all white middle to upper class neighborhoods. Same for GA 400. Sliced right through all white affluent neighborhoods. Same for what is happening now with the people in Sandy Springs who are losing their homes because of the 400 and 285 work that is being done. As far as I-20 goes there were areas on the West and East side that still had plenty of white people in them from 1960 to 1966 when it was constructed from the city outward that were negatively impacted by the construction. It wasn't just black people.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 09:23 AM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
7,924 posts, read 12,237,720 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
So...Houston, Dallas, Nashville, and Chicago have no traffic?
Haha, I like what you did there.

But seriously though, the lightly populated inner regions of this country are grand if you don't like traffic. I was in Omaha for a few weeks on a project earlier this year. When a locally based co-worker would go out for lunch or a business dinner he would apologize about the traffic...that was the same as stopping at a red light for a minute or two.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 09:31 AM
 
1,502 posts, read 1,674,757 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by evannole View Post
I am saying, as I said in my other post, that while the author said the crazy circuitous route was on I-20 WEST, it is, in fact, on I-20 EAST. And the biggest cause of congestion, that was also likely at least in part brought about by or as a tool of segregation, is the Grady Curve, which he fails to mention.

It's just a sloppily written article.
You're misreading the statement. In other words was designed along a winding route east the city so that it could serve as "the boundary between the white and Negro communities" on the west side of town.

Quote:
Interstate 20, the east-west corridor that connects with I-75 and I-85 in Atlanta’s center, was deliberately plotted along a winding route in the late 1950s to serve, in the words of Mayor Bill Hartsfield, as “the boundary between the white and Negro communities” on the west side of town.

This is a short piece that is a part of series observing the 400 years since the beginning of slavery and the legacy of that era and gives one example of how segregation shaped this city.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 09:50 AM
 
1,848 posts, read 1,884,496 times
Reputation: 1696
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
Go anywhere in the south. Or the midwest. Or shoot... the entire country.

Interstates carved up plenty of white neighborhoods, too. Go to any hotel or tall building in Buckhead and check out how GA-400 totally bisects the entire are. It was already a very wealthy, mostly white area when that happened.

I think this guy is reaching. He seems to have a bone to pick with Atlanta, he's done it before.
Agree. Kruse has re-hashed and re-hashed this. There is some truth to what he is saying--sadly, it's always easier to put a highway through a poor area--and in the south those areas were more often than not African-American. And yes, there was a racist component to resistance to expanding MARTA to the burbs. We get that. . . but including the racist joke and the "illegals" comment without really including more moderate viewpoints is just flame-throwing. It just spoon-feeds liberal elite New York Times Magazine readers what they want to hear--that people in fly-over country are racist hillbillies sitting in traffic all day and it's their own fault. That really isn't the Atlanta we all experience every day, and it doesn't move anything forward.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 09:56 AM
bu2
 
10,232 posts, read 6,568,701 times
Reputation: 4320
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlJan View Post
Agree. Kruse has re-hashed and re-hashed this. There is some truth to what he is saying--sadly, it's always easier to put a highway through a poor area--and in the south those areas were more often than not African-American. And yes, there was a racist component to resistance to expanding MARTA to the burbs. We get that. . . but including the racist joke and the "illegals" comment without really including more moderate viewpoints is just flame-throwing. It just spoon-feeds liberal elite New York Times Magazine readers what they want to hear--that people in fly-over country are racist hillbillies sitting in traffic all day and it's their own fault. That really isn't the Atlanta we all experience every day, and it doesn't move anything forward.
And it really has nothing to do with creating congestion.

There is no more parochial area in the country than New York City. New York Times is totally clueless on anything that happens south or west of the Acela Corridor.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 10:15 AM
 
1,848 posts, read 1,884,496 times
Reputation: 1696
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
And it really has nothing to do with creating congestion.

There is no more parochial area in the country than New York City. New York Times is totally clueless on anything that happens south or west of the Acela Corridor.
So true. And Mr. Kruse's precious Princeton has one public high school. According to schooldigger.com, it's 56% white, 25% Asian, 9% Latino and 6% African American, with 9% receiving free lunch. Wow. That actually is more diverse than a lot of the self-segregating small towns in New Jersey.

And somehow he is the expert on our suburbs. Has he ever been to Gwinnett?
 
Old 08-15-2019, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Downtown Marietta
1,142 posts, read 791,194 times
Reputation: 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
You're misreading the statement. In other words was designed along a winding route east the city so that it could serve as "the boundary between the white and Negro communities" on the west side of town.




This is a short piece that is a part of series observing the 400 years since the beginning of slavery and the legacy of that era and gives one example of how segregation shaped this city.
I am not misreading the statement at all. The author specifically says that the route was drawn to separate communities on the west side of town, while it is, in fact, on the east side of town that the route is wonky. If he meant that the route on the east side of town separated two communities, one on the east and one on the west, due to a sudden north-south swing of the highway, then he should have said so with a grammatically clear sentence. Instead, he made either a grammatical error or a factual one. Pick your poison. Neither reflects well on the piece, which otherwise points out, correctly, that racist ideology played a significant role in the routing of interstates in major cities all over the country, including Atlanta.

And, once again, he totally misses the Grady Curve, which is indeed the source and location of the most serious interstate traffic problems ITP - much more so than any part of I-20. And it, too, was probably drawn with at least some racist intent, unfortunately. It's undeniably a stain on the city and metro's history, as is the rejection of MARTA for racial reasons.

But this last point also brings front and center the bigger issue with the article: While it's undeniable that racist thinking played a major role in the routing of the highways, this article tries to draw a line between a reprehensible racist action taken 60 years ago and a circulation problem that exists today, disregarding any other factors (e.g., a five-fold increase in metro population over that same time period; a north-south downtown grid that suddenly rotates 45 degrees at its very center; a merging of two major interstates into one at the very heart of the city; a dearth of protected left-turn lanes and arrows on many major thoroughfares; and so on).

I will link this up this time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
 
Old 08-15-2019, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Vinings/Cumberland in the evil county of Cobb
1,281 posts, read 1,195,915 times
Reputation: 1437
I'll agree that the OP's thread title is questionable, but we all know that one of the big reason for the congestion here in the Atlanta metro has to do with white-flight and racism back when MARTA was being built out. That xenophobic short-sighted ignorance has put the region in the position it's in now. But need to cry over spilled milk now, right? I just wish some of the old guard who continue to hold this region back would wither away and let progress prevail.
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