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Old 09-02-2019, 07:35 PM
 
10,803 posts, read 7,664,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
In this area I will agree that taxes in general between roads and transit do not need to be separate given they both serve the same general purpose and in this aspect, yes I can see how one would see that their separation would make it look like our nation prioritizes automobiles (actually I won't lie, it does at a very worrisome level.) Seperating MARTA from gas tax was a very short sighted moved IMO and the suburbs have a very narrow mindset on transit in general which overall is very anti-progressive.

I will say however that even if we did prioritize transit at a FUNDING level equal as to roads, roads will likely still be just as crowded as they are today because for the same price, you end up with more roads than rail lines given rail is extremely expensive in America. Also it would need to be prioritized based on an average for the municipality because we can't compare funding spent on a nationwide road system to that of a local transit system.

I think we are actually pretty much in agreement.

I will even add that at the most local level, municipalities should be able to spend their tax dollars as they choose. Most end up spending it on streets that do a pretty good job of being multi modal / cars being slow enough to mix with other modes (not that their isn't plenty of opportunities for improvement). But if they want to spend their local tax dollars are a massive freeway that is mostly going to benefit outsiders, that is way down the list in being a problem (and a lot less likely to happen without a significant match, often 90%+ coming from a state / federal source).

I am mostly concerned about the lopsided tax spending on cars vs other alternatives at the state and federal level.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:06 PM
 
5,307 posts, read 3,408,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Where in the world is car infrastructure thriving without subsidy? Can you even point to any time in history that has been true?
I don't think I claimed it did. Nor have I ever claimed it. But I did ask you to clarify whereto did say transit thrives without subsidy. Please respond with a list.

Quote:
I think you know if we "call it even" and get rid of all government subsidies, transit will do better than cars.
No. I don't believe that at all. You have to remember that urban areas in which transit could make even a small dent in an transportation modes are but about 1% of the area of the US. Even in cities with vast, vast transit systems and very expensive parking and tolls, they still see a large percentage of people driving, and their transit systems lose billions per year.

We also disagree heavily on exactly how much subsidy is involved in each (well, I've put forth numbers and you've just said "nuh-uh"), so there's that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I am advocating for total dollar amount of government subsidies to be evened out. If car users really prefer to keep using cars they should have no problem chipping in some tolls to help cover the gap while others get better infrastructure and costs subsidies for the greener, healthier, safer, better for business, better urban design, more efficient, more equitable, and higher capacity walking / biking / transit infrastructure.
I've asked many times, and you either won't or can't answer it. What do you base that equal, even funding on? Statewide road spending equal to city of Atlanta transit spending? On a square mile basis? On a population basis? On an actual user served basis? On a length-of-system basis? What??

You can't just say "it should be equal" without stating WHAT should be equal. That would be like me going to my boss and saying the employees should receive equal pay, but not giving any details about what I actually mean. It's a meaningless statement without describing the actual numbers behind it.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
7,745 posts, read 10,200,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to samiwas1 again.
I did so for you....
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
I did so for you....
Same here.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:49 PM
 
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Sam, I have found there is not really a point with rehashing things like this with you over again or trying to obsess over calculating exact dollar amounts (not that it is even possible in many of these cases).


Lets just say I want funding for transportation to be balanced where other modes get a similar share or government subsidy as cars and have it work here like it does in many (probably most) other places in the world such as Japan, Singapore, Netherlands, Germany, etc where government subsidies for cars infrastructure is much more balanced with spending for transit, bikes, and pedestrians. As we shift towards that (which we are) our growth patterns will also shift more towards more connected / multi-modal areas mostly in the core (and it already is trending that way).

You take from that whatever you need to.
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Old 09-03-2019, 04:17 AM
 
5,307 posts, read 3,408,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Sam, I have found there is not really a point with rehashing things like this with you over again or trying to obsess over calculating exact dollar amounts (not that it is even possible in many of these cases).
I didn't ask for exact dollar amounts. I'm simply asking what you want to make equal. That doesn't involve a single number. You have very, very strong opinions on this, but won't even say what those opinions are based on. "I want it equal" or "I want it balanced" is extremely vague and holds no actual meaning. I get it...you want modes to have equal share, but of what pie? I couldn't walk in to a meeting and say "We need things to be better for people", but not specify what that even means. No one would pay attention and I would be ignored.

You could say something like "I want the budget for GDOT and MARTA to be equal, even though they serve vastly different geographical areas and populations". You could say "We should charge a large amount for parking at MARTA stations to dissuade people from driving to MARTA and not subsidize that parking". You could say "10% of all road construction project budgets should be for sidewalk and bike lanes". Then we could have actual discussions based on possible policy, and determine exactly how mismatched that funding is. It's impossible to debate with vague generalities.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:53 AM
bu2
 
10,289 posts, read 6,612,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Where in the world is car infrastructure thriving without subsidy? Can you even point to any time in history that has been true?

I think you know if we "call it even" and get rid of all government subsidies, transit will do better than cars. But I am still fine with subsidies, just if we are going to do government subsidies then options like walking, biking, and transit should get more subsidies than cars because it is greener, healthier, safer, better for business, better urban design, more efficient, more equitable, and has higher capacity.
In the US until construction costs skyrocketed in the last couple of decades. Its called the gas tax. In fact, a substantial portion of the federal gas tax was subsidizing transit.

Making the argument that we should subsidize transit is fair. Claiming transit pays for itself just discredits everything else you say.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:55 AM
bu2
 
10,289 posts, read 6,612,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
It would have to be leveled out in percentages because you are only seeing things in the scope of a metro area and its local transit system. These taxes are implied to the nations highway and road system NATIONWIDE, every mile and every state and there is just plainly far more roads in this country and especially need for roads in rural areas unless...that is you don't mind going to a Publix or Krogers and finding it completely empty because farmers couldn't ship their produce.

Edit: And roads, or atleast limited access highways are destined to become toll-roads in the future. That is a definite. Gas Tax does not cover enough to maintain them anymore and with the introduction of hybrids and electric vehicles its impractical to charge fair-use toward those vehicles unless its somehow levied out of a annual mileage tax. Most new highways in this country ARE toll-roads and I am not against it given it builds them much faster and typically promotes reliable speeds while in a sense limiting sprawl.
Not happening.

New capacity is going to be overwhelmingly toll. But no politician that converts a road that "was already paid for" is going to get reelected.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:01 AM
 
2,474 posts, read 959,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Not happening.

New capacity is going to be overwhelmingly toll. But no politician that converts a road that "was already paid for" is going to get reelected.
Then there's Plan B ... watch all of our bridges and overpasses rot and fall to the ground ... being realistic here, our infrastructure is QUICKLY deprecating in this country. Even on I-285 alone there are several that are in need of repairs, renovations, or upgrades or entire replacements. Other states? don't get me started.

Look at what is happening to large bridges such as Louisville KY to Indiana (I-65) - its electronic tolled. They're going to make I-10 across Lake Charles tolled (and probably across the Mississippi too eventually) and they are also considering I-10 across the Mobile bay in Mobile AL as a toll bridge as well...

In present, our roads 'construction' costs have been covered but maintanence costs is always on-going, they would just be shifted from gas tax to tolls.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:24 AM
 
Location: North Atlanta
5,516 posts, read 3,905,223 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Not happening.

New capacity is going to be overwhelmingly toll. But no politician that converts a road that "was already paid for" is going to get reelected.
The term "already paid for" is the biggest crock of [dung] in transportation (unless we pre-pay maintenance for eternity).
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