09-02-2019, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Need4Camaro
In this area I will agree that taxes in general between roads and transit do not need to be separate given they both serve the same general purpose and in this aspect, yes I can see how one would see that their separation would make it look like our nation prioritizes automobiles (actually I won't lie, it does at a very worrisome level.) Seperating MARTA from gas tax was a very short sighted moved IMO and the suburbs have a very narrow mindset on transit in general which overall is very anti-progressive.
I will say however that even if we did prioritize transit at a FUNDING level equal as to roads, roads will likely still be just as crowded as they are today because for the same price, you end up with more roads than rail lines given rail is extremely expensive in America. Also it would need to be prioritized based on an average for the municipality because we can't compare funding spent on a nationwide road system to that of a local transit system.
I think we are actually pretty much in agreement.
I will even add that at the most local level, municipalities should be able to spend their tax dollars as they choose. Most end up spending it on streets that do a pretty good job of being multi modal / cars being slow enough to mix with other modes (not that their isn't plenty of opportunities for improvement). But if they want to spend their local tax dollars are a massive freeway that is mostly going to benefit outsiders, that is way down the list in being a problem (and a lot less likely to happen without a significant match, often 90%+ coming from a state / federal source).
I am mostly concerned about the lopsided tax spending on cars vs other alternatives at the state and federal level.
09-02-2019, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jsvh
Where in the world is car infrastructure thriving without subsidy? Can you even point to any time in history that has been true?
I don't think I claimed it did. Nor have I ever claimed it. But I did ask you to clarify whereto did say transit thrives without subsidy. Please respond with a list.
Quote:
I think you know if we "call it even" and get rid of all government subsidies, transit will do better than cars.
No. I don't believe that at all. You have to remember that urban areas in which transit could make even a small dent in an transportation modes are but about 1% of the area of the US. Even in cities with vast, vast transit systems and very expensive parking and tolls, they still see a large percentage of people driving, and their transit systems lose billions per year.
We also disagree heavily on exactly how much subsidy is involved in each (well, I've put forth numbers and you've just said "nuh-uh"), so there's that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jsvh
I am advocating for total dollar amount of government subsidies to be evened out . If car users really prefer to keep using cars they should have no problem chipping in some tolls to help cover the gap while others get better infrastructure and costs subsidies for the greener, healthier, safer, better for business, better urban design, more efficient, more equitable, and higher capacity walking / biking / transit infrastructure.
I've asked many times, and you either won't or can't answer it. What do you base that equal, even funding on? Statewide road spending equal to city of Atlanta transit spending? On a square mile basis? On a population basis? On an actual user served basis? On a length-of-system basis? What??
You can't just say "it should be equal" without stating WHAT should be equal. That would be like me going to my boss and saying the employees should receive equal pay, but not giving any details about what I actually mean. It's a meaningless statement without describing the actual numbers behind it.
09-02-2019, 09:36 PM
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
bu2
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to samiwas1 again.
I did so for you....
09-02-2019, 09:41 PM
Location: Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Saintmarks
I did so for you....
Same here.
09-02-2019, 09:49 PM
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Sam, I have found there is not really a point with rehashing things like this with you over again or trying to obsess over calculating exact dollar amounts (not that it is even possible in many of these cases).
Lets just say I want funding for transportation to be balanced where other modes get a similar share or government subsidy as cars and have it work here like it does in many (probably most) other places in the world such as Japan, Singapore, Netherlands, Germany, etc where government subsidies for cars infrastructure is much more balanced with spending for transit, bikes, and pedestrians. As we shift towards that (which we are) our growth patterns will also shift more towards more connected / multi-modal areas mostly in the core (and it already is trending that way).
You take from that whatever you need to.
09-03-2019, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jsvh
Sam, I have found there is not really a point with rehashing things like this with you over again or trying to obsess over calculating exact dollar amounts (not that it is even possible in many of these cases).
I didn't ask for exact dollar amounts. I'm simply asking what you want to make equal. That doesn't involve a single number. You have very, very strong opinions on this, but won't even say what those opinions are based on. "I want it equal" or "I want it balanced" is extremely vague and holds no actual meaning. I get it...you want modes to have equal share,
but of what pie ? I couldn't walk in to a meeting and say "We need things to be better for people", but not specify what that even means. No one would pay attention and I would be ignored.
You could say something like "I want the budget for GDOT and MARTA to be equal, even though they serve vastly different geographical areas and populations". You could say "We should charge a large amount for parking at MARTA stations to dissuade people from driving to MARTA and not subsidize that parking". You could say "10% of all road construction project budgets should be for sidewalk and bike lanes". Then we could have actual discussions based on possible policy, and determine exactly how mismatched that funding is. It's impossible to debate with vague generalities.
09-03-2019, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jsvh
Where in the world is car infrastructure thriving without subsidy? Can you even point to any time in history that has been true?
I think you know if we "call it even" and get rid of all government subsidies, transit will do better than cars. But I am still fine with subsidies, just if we are going to do government subsidies then options like walking, biking, and transit should get more subsidies than cars because it is greener, healthier, safer, better for business, better urban design, more efficient, more equitable, and has higher capacity.
In the US until construction costs skyrocketed in the last couple of decades. Its called the gas tax. In fact, a substantial portion of the federal gas tax was subsidizing transit.
Making the argument that we should subsidize transit is fair. Claiming transit pays for itself just discredits everything else you say.
09-03-2019, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Need4Camaro
It would have to be leveled out in percentages because you are only seeing things in the scope of a metro area and its local transit system. These taxes are implied to the nations highway and road system NATIONWIDE, every mile and every state and there is just plainly far more roads in this country and especially need for roads in rural areas unless...that is you don't mind going to a Publix or Krogers and finding it completely empty because farmers couldn't ship their produce.
Edit: And roads, or atleast limited access highways are destined to become toll-roads in the future. That is a definite. Gas Tax does not cover enough to maintain them anymore and with the introduction of hybrids and electric vehicles its impractical to charge fair-use toward those vehicles unless its somehow levied out of a annual mileage tax. Most new highways in this country ARE toll-roads and I am not against it given it builds them much faster and typically promotes reliable speeds while in a sense limiting sprawl.
Not happening.
New capacity is going to be overwhelmingly toll. But no politician that converts a road that "was already paid for" is going to get reelected.
09-03-2019, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
bu2
Not happening.
New capacity is going to be overwhelmingly toll. But no politician that converts a road that "was already paid for" is going to get reelected.
Then there's Plan B ... watch all of our bridges and overpasses rot and fall to the ground ... being realistic here, our infrastructure is QUICKLY deprecating in this country. Even on I-285 alone there are several that are in need of repairs, renovations, or upgrades or entire replacements. Other states? don't get me started.
Look at what is happening to large bridges such as Louisville KY to Indiana (I-65) - its electronic tolled. They're going to make I-10 across Lake Charles tolled (and probably across the Mississippi too eventually) and they are also considering I-10 across the Mobile bay in Mobile AL as a toll bridge as well...
In present, our roads 'construction' costs have been covered but maintanence costs is always on-going, they would just be shifted from gas tax to tolls.
09-03-2019, 11:24 AM
Location: NW Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
bu2
Not happening.
New capacity is going to be overwhelmingly toll. But no politician that converts a road that "was already paid for" is going to get reelected.
The term "already paid for" is the biggest crock of [dung] in transportation (unless we pre-pay maintenance for eternity).
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People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)