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I think what you are asking has already been answered. There will need to be people in positions of power in APS who have high expectations for all students regardless of their race, class, or social standing. What color they are needs not matter. As far as the other questions go, my children are not 'white' so I can't really answer for that part. It isn't just white people who are moving into the city there is a significant uptick of Asian, South Asian, and Middle Eastern residents as well and many are choosing APS over Private Schools. Lets remember that almost all of the City Hall power brokers who are black send their kids to Private Schools and not APS. As we have discussed before that is a very bad look. I am not trying to shame people nor am I suggesting someone doesn't have the right to send their child to a Private School but it kinda disagrees with your comments and confirms what BobbyJayATL posted. There is a new Superintendent lets see how long she lasts. Carstarphen stood up to the low expectation crowd and you see where that got her.
The City Government is not the same as APS Leadership. They are two different entities. Many in both categories attended APS schools themselves. Honestly, many of them have the same misconceptions as white people do about black schools. Or they have the income and "status" to go private/charter. Others do not and send their kids to APS. But the mayor and city council have nothing to do with the inner workings of APS.
The question that I am still having some difficulty pinning down an answer to is: What does holding ALL students to high expectations look like to you? Especially when the district is so segregated. What can be done for the clusters still populated with mostly poor black kids if only black students/parents are willing to attend? You mentioned that "sweeping change" is coming. So I am asking what specifically do you think that sweeping change will look like and how do you think it will be any different than how APS is currently ran?
Will the significant uptick of Asian, South Asian, and Middle Eastern residents eventually spill into Washington, Carver, South Atlanta, Douglass, Therell, & Mays clusters in your opinion? Mind you, all these communities are not totally black, yet the schools practically are. And who is the "low expectation crowd"? When students perform poorly, you are saying that the primary reason is low parent expectations? If so, what do you purpose APS should do about that? Lastly, I don't think Carstarphen was ousted for holding a higher standard for Black students. I liked Carstarphen and could get deeply into the reasons behind her departure, but that is a long story, possibly for another day....
The moral of the story is that it's hard to see the big picture when you are only looking at one piece or side of the puzzle. This goes back to the ill-informed "all they have to is" arguments that I mentioned to you in a previous post.
Last edited by equinox63; 10-13-2020 at 01:25 PM..
Lets remember that almost all of the City Hall power brokers who are black send their kids to Private Schools and not APS.
As one more point of clarity, I cannot speak for the mayor and city council (although most are products of APS), but I can say that the overwhelming majority of the APS school board members and leadership have or have had children that attend(ed) APS schools.
I think you were so wrapped up with the mayor and city hall, that you didn't look at the people who actually run APS...
As one more point of clarity, I cannot speak for the mayor and city council (although most are products of APS), but I can say that the overwhelming majority of the APS school board members and leadership have or have had children that attend(ed) APS schools.
I think you were so wrapped up with the mayor and city hall, that you didn't look at the people who actually run APS...
The point being that the city leadership has no faith in our public school system. You don't see anything wrong with that? Its embarrassing really. It speaks volumes and shows how far we have to go. You keep trying to frame this as a black or white issue. That isn't the issue. It is an accountability and expectation issue. The new Superintendent has far different ideas than Carstarphen had. That is called change. I was one of the people who was not sad to see Carstarphen go but when it came to the issues we are talking about she was on the right side of education and she was punished for it. We need APS employees who will hold every child to the same standard. We don't have that and I think that was what BobbyJayATL was referring to. You have two sets of rules and expectations. I have kids in the system who are minorities. I have seen and heard how kids are treated not only by the administrators but also the teachers. What happens in one school cluster can't be blamed on another. I'm not responsible for what happens in the Mays or Douglass cluster but do you now who is? The APS administrators that are completely fine with the results they are getting. That is who you need to be talking to about this not me or anyone else on here.
The point being that the city leadership has no faith in our public school system. You don't see anything wrong with that? Its embarrassing really. It speaks volumes and shows how far we have to go. You keep trying to frame this as a black or white issue. That isn't the issue. It is an accountability and expectation issue. The new Superintendent has far different ideas than Carstarphen had. That is called change. I was one of the people who was not sad to see Carstarphen go but when it came to the issues we are talking about she was on the right side of education and she was punished for it. We need APS employees who will hold every child to the same standard. We don't have that and I think that was what BobbyJayATL was referring to. You have two sets of rules and expectations. I have kids in the system who are minorities. I have seen and heard how kids are treated not only by the administrators but also the teachers. What happens in one school cluster can't be blamed on another. I'm not responsible for what happens in the Mays or Douglass cluster but do you now who is? The APS administrators that are completely fine with the results they are getting. That is who you need to be talking to about this not me or anyone else on here.
The biggest complaint about Carstarphen was that the other clusters (besides Grady, NA, and Jackson) felt that she didn't pay enough attention to the issues within their schools. Others thought that she was too quick to go to charter takeovers as a solution. Nevertheless, I don't think you are very clear on the rationale outside of the Grady/NA/Jackson clusters. As you said, you are not responsible for what happens in other clusters, so I do not see how you could accurately speak to the efforts, advocacy, or expectations set forth by schools in the remaining 6 clusters. You are painting with a super broad brush, but when I ask to drill down to the specifics, your response is "that's not my problem".
You are speaking to problems in parts of the city that you don't know about, yet when we discuss solutions, your only response is "hold 'em accountable". What does that mean? Fire teachers and admins? If so, what is the protocol for the new teachers/admins? Kick out unruly students? Hold students back who are not reading on level? Offer Social Emotional Learning? Educational/financial support for parents?
If you were to ask me, the root to a school's success lies with an organized group of parents and community members. They demand the change you are speaking of. Grady, NA, and Jackson have this. The others do not. They also have foundations and other means of financial support outside of APS. The others do not. Not to mention, Grady, NA, and Jackson have a far larger tax base on top of that -- which is the majority of how these schools are funded.
When Carstarphen suggested more resources going to the 6 other clusters, do you know what the North Atlanta/Grady cluster parents said: "That's not fair! Why are you making it racial by focusing on those schools? Any assistance from APS should be for ALL students in every cluster, not just those. Don't blame us because those parents don't value education!" I'm not saying all parents shared this sentiment, but many/enough vocal parents did. Do you see how this sounds familiar?
It's easy to be a coach from the sidelines. From where you sit, it is as simple as "these teachers need to hold these kids accountable" or "these parents need to raise their expectations". But most of the high-achieving kids and active parents in the applicable communities go to different schools outside of their zoned school -- further crippling the zoned school. In my opinion, these schools will never turn around until the people who live in the communities invest in them. Some do. Many don't. But it is a little disingenuous to say what needs to happen in APS, then when getting into the nitty-gritty, respond with, "Hey, that's not my problem. You figure it out..."
BTW, I said this was a socioeconomic issue. BobbyJayATL said it was racial. I disagreed. You straddled the fence. Do you see what I'm saying? You are quick to illustrate the problems with APS with little knowledge about what caused the problems or what has been done thus far to remedy them. But that goes back to some people having a stronger/louder voice than others. But again, I get it. You don't really care that much to dig a little deeper...
My last question is this, Do you believe that most/all teachers at Grady view other ethnic minorities the same as black students and hold them all to the same expectations and standards? Are you advocating for equity and the same expectations across the board within your school cluster? I know all too well the disparities at Grady HS, and although race is not the key factor in this discussion, there are definitely well known equity issues at Grady. Not necessarily with Asian, Indian, and other ethnic minorities, but definitely with black students. I gave concrete examples in the thread that the mods deleted. And I could refer you to books that can really break this down for you. But of course, I know you will refuse to read them.
Last edited by equinox63; 10-13-2020 at 04:10 PM..
Okay, so by your logic, the best solution is to throw a teenage kid in jail that was hit by a car for selling water in the street in order to make ends meet?
Let's walk this through. You would rather have this boy's family incur all types of court costs/fees (in addition to any medical costs/fees) that they almost certainly do not have? Is it better that he miss school and make no money at all because sending him to jail during a pandemic will set the example for his peers not to sell water on the side of the road to help make ends meet?
So after this kid comes out of jail, will he be more of an asset or a detriment to society? Is he going to say, "I learned my lesson. No more water selling for me. Now let me get my grades and resume together to get 9 to 5."
Or will he and his peers grow resentment and hatred toward the police? The message would likely be "they're gonna try to lock me up anyway -- I've already been to jail -- so I'm gonna do (fill in worse activity) to help make ends meet and do a better job of dodging the law." So in essence, this boys' life, family, and future would be considerably damaged for selling water while other people can literally sell weed in the city and only come out with a fine.
Don't you think this sort of says where our priorities are? What if it was a teenage girl? Or a homeless person? Throw 'em in jail, too? You are right that just laws should be upheld, but as we have seen time and time again -- throwing poor kids in jail for trying to earn money legitimately does no good for anyone.
If this was your son, you would just say, "It's the law, son. Off to jail you go. That's what you get for selling water in the streets of Atlanta in order to help keep the heat and lights on..."
Lol ridiculous response. Learn to respect the law. You as well.
Lol ridiculous response. Learn to respect the law. You as well.
Seriously speaking, I'll agree that there are times when this activity gets excessively aggressive, and I am pro eliminating concerns regarding safety, but do you truly feel those who are earnestly pining for pennies whom perhaps do not have the alternate options to obtain their goals really need to be thrown in jail?
If we're talking about laws, they apply to everyone, not just panhandlers and the less fortunate, and you break them as well, every day in fact. Are we biasing which laws imposed upon which groups should merit a jail sentence? Do you have a specific bias against those in need whom are attempting to non-violently conjure funding, because I can think of far worse ways to do so than road side water sales.
Is compassion and empathy any part of your persona at all? I'm speaking of non-violent types here, those who really 'do' need the money or do not have the opportunities to easily get up and get a job but still want to work for their food and education.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 10-13-2020 at 10:50 PM..
The biggest complaint about Carstarphen was that the other clusters (besides Grady, NA, and Jackson) felt that she didn't pay enough attention to the issues within their schools. Others thought that she was too quick to go to charter takeovers as a solution. Nevertheless, I don't think you are very clear on the rationale outside of the Grady/NA/Jackson clusters. As you said, you are not responsible for what happens in other clusters, so I do not see how you could accurately speak to the efforts, advocacy, or expectations set forth by schools in the remaining 6 clusters. You are painting with a super broad brush, but when I ask to drill down to the specifics, your response is "that's not my problem".
You are speaking to problems in parts of the city that you don't know about, yet when we discuss solutions, your only response is "hold 'em accountable". What does that mean? Fire teachers and admins? If so, what is the protocol for the new teachers/admins? Kick out unruly students? Hold students back who are not reading on level? Offer Social Emotional Learning? Educational/financial support for parents?
If you were to ask me, the root to a school's success lies with an organized group of parents and community members. They demand the change you are speaking of. Grady, NA, and Jackson have this. The others do not. They also have foundations and other means of financial support outside of APS. The others do not. Not to mention, Grady, NA, and Jackson have a far larger tax base on top of that -- which is the majority of how these schools are funded.
When Carstarphen suggested more resources going to the 6 other clusters, do you know what the North Atlanta/Grady cluster parents said: "That's not fair! Why are you making it racial by focusing on those schools? Any assistance from APS should be for ALL students in every cluster, not just those. Don't blame us because those parents don't value education!" I'm not saying all parents shared this sentiment, but many/enough vocal parents did. Do you see how this sounds familiar?
It's easy to be a coach from the sidelines. From where you sit, it is as simple as "these teachers need to hold these kids accountable" or "these parents need to raise their expectations". But most of the high-achieving kids and active parents in the applicable communities go to different schools outside of their zoned school -- further crippling the zoned school. In my opinion, these schools will never turn around until the people who live in the communities invest in them. Some do. Many don't. But it is a little disingenuous to say what needs to happen in APS, then when getting into the nitty-gritty, respond with, "Hey, that's not my problem. You figure it out..."
BTW, I said this was a socioeconomic issue. BobbyJayATL said it was racial. I disagreed. You straddled the fence. Do you see what I'm saying? You are quick to illustrate the problems with APS with little knowledge about what caused the problems or what has been done thus far to remedy them. But that goes back to some people having a stronger/louder voice than others. But again, I get it. You don't really care that much to dig a little deeper...
My last question is this, Do you believe that most/all teachers at Grady view other ethnic minorities the same as black students and hold them all to the same expectations and standards? Are you advocating for equity and the same expectations across the board within your school cluster? I know all too well the disparities at Grady HS, and although race is not the key factor in this discussion, there are definitely well known equity issues at Grady. Not necessarily with Asian, Indian, and other ethnic minorities, but definitely with black students. I gave concrete examples in the thread that the mods deleted. And I could refer you to books that can really break this down for you. But of course, I know you will refuse to read them.
There is a lot wrong with your post but I will address the glaring inaccuracies:
Quote:
Not to mention, Grady, NA, and Jackson have a far larger tax base on top of that -- which is the majority of how these schools are funded.
That isn't how it works. Although my kids are in the Grady cluster my property taxes go to APS they don't go to just the Grady cluster. It is one total pool of money for APS not 9 separate pools with money going to where you live and the school(s) your kids attend. The money is distributed to the whole system not individual schools based on your address. I think we are now up to $17k spent per student in APS. That is the same for if you are at Grady or NA or Douglass or Mays. Its the same for parks my taxes don't just go to fund parks in Candler Park they go to fund the whole Atlanta city park system. People with higher property taxes in the city of Atlanta are funding all the schools not just the district you live in.
I have children in APS. Do you? I am pretty well versed on what has been going on the last 10 years since my kids have been in the system. Black students are being given low expectations from black administrators and black teachers. Until black students are treated as equals by these black teachers and administrators and not treated as "throw away" children nothing is going to change. The Administration sets the tone not the individual teachers. The teachers take direction from the Administrators not the other way around. If you remember back to the APS cheating scandal/trial you had testimony from black children that their black teachers were calling them 'stupid' 'dumb' 'failures' etc. Nobody wants to answer for that though. You just want to try and talk about 'equity' when the problem doesn't even start there. The Grady, NA, and Jackson clusters aren't the problem and they aren't the boogeyman. Education starts at home. You do not have to be a millionaire to value education and throwing more money at this problem will never fix it. It is past time for the leadership at APS to treat all students and expectations the same and quit having low expectations for certain segments of students.
There is a lot wrong with your post but I will address the glaring inaccuracies:
That isn't how it works. Although my kids are in the Grady cluster my property taxes go to APS they don't go to just the Grady cluster. It is one total pool of money for APS not 9 separate pools with money going to where you live and the school(s) your kids attend. The money is distributed to the whole system not individual schools based on your address. I think we are now up to $17k spent per student in APS. That is the same for if you are at Grady or NA or Douglass or Mays. Its the same for parks my taxes don't just go to fund parks in Candler Park they go to fund the whole Atlanta city park system. People with higher property taxes in the city of Atlanta are funding all the schools not just the district you live in.
Duly noted. You are correct. But this has not always been the case. The budget formula that you are referring to (I believe) is a little over 10 years old. But I won’t speak on it off the cuff for fear of being inaccurate, so I will concede that point. But does that one point negate everything else I wrote?
In essence, you are right that the true disparity comes from the large foundations that help fund the northern and eastern schools that are non-existent in nearly all the other clusters. Just look at each school's PTAs. Some schools bring in thousands of dollars while other schools have PTAs that are barely functional. Not because of a lack of willingness and concern, but more so a lack of time and resources. That is just one example of why I said the community and its involvement is the root to a school's success. What can a superintendent do to fix a broken PTA or GO Team? For that matter, what can an influx of middle-class residents do about it? All I can think of is for them to join and participate in them. Just like you said, the organized parents with strong adamant voices tend to get the education that their kids deserve. The only issue that I mentioned was that these groups of strong, active, and engaged parents in many cases have chosen not to that within the beleaguered APS clusters. I can get into why that is, but it would be too much for a conversation that I think people feel has gone on long enough…
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks
I have children in APS. Do you? I am pretty well versed on what has been going on the last 10 years since my kids have been in the system. Black students are being given low expectations from black administrators and black teachers. Until black students are treated as equals by these black teachers and administrators and not treated as "throw away" children nothing is going to change.
Yes, I do have children in APS. Here’s the thing, while I cannot really speak for Inman Middle or the elementary schools, I can definitely say that all the things you mentioned above have been said about white teachers at Grady High School toward their black students. Do you see what I’m saying? You keep saying it’s not about race, as did I, but instead of saying...
“Black students are being given low expectations from black administrators and black teachers. Until black students are treated as equals by these black teachers and administrators and not treated as "throw away" children nothing is going to change”,
...why not say “Black students are being given low expectations from black AND WHITE administrators and black AND WHITE teachers. Until black students are treated as equals by ALL teachers and administrators and not treated as "throw away" children nothing is going to change.”? Because that would be the more accurate statement.
You make it sound like I’m talking about a NE vs SW thing. The racial and socioeconomic disparity exists within Grady and North Atlanta as well. I have talked to parents and faculty at Jackson who have said that they intentionally work hard not to become like Grady in that regard. And again, I have said several times that I like Grady as a school. But you really shouldn't point out the faults of another cluster without also looking at your own. I'm not saying YOU personally, but the bad elements within the cluster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks
The Administration sets the tone not the individual teachers. The teachers take direction from the Administrators not the other way around.
As I said earlier, organized parents can get admins and teachers out if they so chose. I’m sure you have heard of parent complaints that swiftly got teachers and admins removed in certain North Atlanta cluster schools among others. I don't think the west and SW parents are that galvanized yet. I know of parent groups in other clusters that have tried to get certain administrators out for years to no avail. This is another example of why I said a strong parents/community base is key.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks
If you remember back to the APS cheating scandal/trial you had testimony from black children that their black teachers were calling them 'stupid' 'dumb' 'failures' etc. Nobody wants to answer for that though.
I thought they completely cleaned house after the cheating scandal. At least that is what seemed to be the case at the school and adminstrative level. Are you referencing testimonies from a scandal and trial from 6 to 10 years ago, two superintendents ago, to speak to what is happening in APS right now? All I am saying is that I have actually been inside the schools we are talking about. I have seen, firsthand, many of the success and challenges within these schools that I do not believe you have. And that is also why when you paint the teachers and admins (black, white, or otherwise) with such a broad brush, it does not speak to the reality on the ground right now. Does APS have issues? Yes. But of all the factors at play, your biggest culprit is low-expectations for minority kids based on testimony from the cheating scandal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks
You just want to try and talk about 'equity' when the problem doesn't even start there. The Grady, NA, and Jackson clusters aren't the problem and they aren't the boogeyman. Education starts at home. You do not have to be a millionaire to value education and throwing more money at this problem will never fix it.
I never said Grady, NA, and Jackson were boogeymen. I also agree that education starts at home. I said the issue is that most groups of educated and organized families (of any race) are not working within their zoned schools in the south and west clusters, thus making them better. Those families in the schools alone would greatly raise the expectations you speak of...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronricks
It is past time for the leadership at APS to treat all students and expectations the same and quit having low expectations for certain segments of students.
Okay, but again, that goes back to the school and parent level as well. So now that we have been around the world and back, let’s go back to the initial question that started this whole conversation.
Considering everything we discussed, How will the influx or more affluent/educated people in the city or even in APS leadership affect the racial/socioeconomic disparities in the system? Or as you would say, how will they “raise the expectations of minority students” across the district without moving into the areas where the predominantly black schools are?
Last edited by equinox63; 10-14-2020 at 07:30 PM..
Video shows dangers of 'bottle boys' selling during Atlanta rush hour
BUCKHEAD, Ga. - The member of the Atlanta City Council who represents Buckhead says he gets complaints about boys selling water in the street nearly every day.
With the weather warming, more of the bottle boys are coming out. And as a video shot by an onlooker shows, their behavior has become more aggressive and unpredictable..."
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