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I should add.. this is definitely our wish list. I’m willing to forego nice restaurants and coffee shops if necessary to have the other neighborhood qualities. I can cook and have a Keurig lol we will both likely continue to work from home, so commute isn’t an issue. Would like to go to an event or two ITP monthly though.
Smyrna is another community that maybe might could appeal to you because it is a gentrifying inner-suburb with some notably walkable elements and a growing amount of urban amenities (including restaurants, coffee shops, etc.) that has much appeal with a growing population of young professionals, many with families. Smyrna is also located fairly close to the city.
The challenges with Smyrna are that the schools are of high quality but only feature average to slightly above-average academic ratings because of a large population of lower-income transient residents that pulls on academic scores.
Also be warned that the housing supply in an area like Smyrna currently is limited and the pickings are slim because of the high demand and popularity of the Smyrna housing market over the last roughly 7-8 years.
10 years ago, you trim off only two things from the list. Today, it's three, and that's being conservative. Boring big-ish houses deep in West Cobb are clearing $800,000 these days. And you want a trendy McMansion ITP for $500,000? Lol
A bad studio loft in a meh part of East Atlanta is $400,000
Didn't really see any bad studio lofts in EA for $400k. But I did come across these...
Personally, I think OTP is probably better for black students than even many of the good intown schools. The intown good schools tend to be more segregated than the east-west OTP options, and even when they aren’t segregated, the representation of black and white students—is often white=wealthy, black=poor (of course, there are many wealthy black families intown—but the disparity in wealth by race intown is still huge). In many of of the more successful Atlanta suburbs white and black families have pretty much equal chance of being rich or poor, and educational outcomes are much more similar.
I should add.. this is definitely our wish list. I’m willing to forego nice restaurants and coffee shops if necessary to have the other neighborhood qualities. I can cook and have a Keurig lol we will both likely continue to work from home, so commute isn’t an issue. Would like to go to an event or two ITP monthly though.
Check out Gwinnett county area Suwannee & Duluth, it's a melting pot area of Atlanta, there is really no majority race, it's split between White/Asian/Black & Hispanic pretty evenly. Great downtown areas, & lot of high quality eating places due to the huge immigrant communities.
Personally, I think OTP is probably better for black students than even many of the good intown schools. The intown good schools tend to be more segregated than the east-west OTP options, and even when they aren’t segregated, the representation of black and white students—is often white=wealthy, black=poor (of course, there are many wealthy black families intown—but the disparity in wealth by race intown is still huge). In many of of the more successful Atlanta suburbs white and black families have pretty much equal chance of being rich or poor, and educational outcomes are much more similar.
Can you elaborate on this? I agree with your premise that intown schools are often (though not exclusively) wealthy white families and poor black families. But does that make intown schools a bad option for wealthy black families? In other words, do wealthy black families experience similar educational outcomes as poor black families in intown schools?
Can you elaborate on this? I agree with your premise that intown schools are often (though not exclusively) wealthy white families and poor black families. But does that make intown schools a bad option for wealthy black families? In other words, do wealthy black families experience similar educational outcomes as poor black families in intown schools?
I know this question is not addressed to me, and I'm sure jeoff will respond at some point. But I also agree with his point that intown schools are often (though not exclusively) wealthy white families and poor black families. However, as someone who works closely within the schools to which he is referring, I can say that the answer to the bolded question above is "No".
This is also evident with almost all-black schools like Westlake or Arabia Mountain where wealthy/middle-class Black families (of which there are plenty) often have better outcomes than the poor Black families that attend. However, in both instances, the available opportunities are better for poor students than in schools where the entire school population is low-income. Albeit, poor students still make it and succeed in those situations as well, but they often do so by overcoming greater obstacles/challenges.
Last edited by equinox63; 01-13-2022 at 01:17 PM..
I know this question is not addressed to me, and I'm sure jeoff will respond at some point. But I also agree with his point that intown schools are often (though not exclusively) wealthy white families and poor black families. However, as someone who works closely within the schools to which he is referring, I can say that the answer to the bolded question above is "No".
This is also evident with almost all-black schools like Westlake or Arabia Mountain where wealthy/middle-class Black families (of which there are plenty) often have better outcomes than the poor Black families that attend. However, in both instances, the available opportunities are better for poor students than in schools where the entire school population is low-income. Albeit, poor students still make it and succeed in those situations as well, but they often do so by overcoming greater obstacles/challenges.
Thanks, Equinox. I appreciate that response, and that all makes sense to me.
Can you elaborate on this? I agree with your premise that intown schools are often (though not exclusively) wealthy white families and poor black families. But does that make intown schools a bad option for wealthy black families? In other words, do wealthy black families experience similar educational outcomes as poor black families in intown schools?
I don’t know if there is any place that breaks down the data comparing poor black versus wealthy black students in the metro. There is data supporting the case that in many suburban schools both black families (not broken down by wealth) and poor families fare much better than they do intown.
But, even if educational outcomes are similar, I believe there are problems with being a trace-minority in a school, whether it’s being only one of a handful of black children in a school, or only one of a handful of wealthy black children in a school that has a lot of black children living in poverty. (depending on the region, you could substitute Asian, Jewish, Muslim, Hispanic, etc.). Based off of personal experience, I am pretty certain there are social-psychological problems that come with that—and I would guess that there is literature that backs it up —the recent controversy at Mary Lin Elementary was the result of a black principal trying to avoid a situation where a black child would be the only black child in the class—I am pretty sure that educator had reason to believe that was unhealthy.
And, for what it’s worth, I don’t think the city situation is the healthiest for wealthy white students either—a progressive bubble is still a bubble —I think it encourages some unhealthy ideas about blacks and lower middle-class and poor whites.
I don’t know if there is any place that breaks down the data comparing poor black versus wealthy black students in the metro. There is data supporting the case that in many suburban schools both black families (not broken down by wealth) and poor families fare much better than they do intown.
But, even if educational outcomes are similar, I believe there are problems with being a trace-minority in a school, whether it’s being only one of a handful of black children in a school, or only one of a handful of wealthy black children in a school that has a lot of black children living in poverty. (depending on the region, you could substitute Asian, Jewish, Muslim, Hispanic, etc.). Based off of personal experience, I am pretty certain there are social-psychological problems that come with that—and I would guess that there is literature that backs it up —the recent controversy at Mary Lin Elementary was the result of a black principal trying to avoid a situation where a black child would be the only black child in the class—I am pretty sure that educator had reason to believe that was unhealthy.
And, for what it’s worth, I don’t think the city situation is the healthiest for wealthy white students either—a progressive bubble is still a bubble —I think it encourages some unhealthy ideas about blacks and lower middle-class and poor whites.
While I agree with most of what you have written here, I think the socioeconomic/racial disparities that you speak of are more prevalent at the elementary school level than at the middle/high school level. If we are talking about situations in which a student is a trace-minority or a token, then I completely understand and agree about the psychological factors that you mention. For example, Mary Lin is only 10% black. I really wouldn’t consider that a racially mixed school. To me, it is more so like a white school with a few black students. But on the other hand, Grady/Midtown is about 34% black, and while a number of those students are low-income, some aren’t. But I can also add that Midtown does not do the best job of addressing the disparities within their school.
Truthfully, only about three clusters within APS would be considered somewhat diverse. Each middle/high school has their individual ways of addressing the socioeconomic diversity within their schools – some more effectively than others. Look at Drew Charter School, which has an overwhelming higher Black population and a slightly higher percentage of low-income students, yet the performance is on par with Midtown High.
Jackson HS, for example, is around 15% middle class white, about 44% low-income black, and around 41% middle class black. So I don’t think that necessarily represents the type of “trace-minority” dynamic that you are describing.
North Atlanta HS is like 34% white, 36% black, and 24% Latino. And there is a range of economic levels amongst the black and Latino students there as well.
So while I believe your points are very valid, I do not think that the social-psychological problems that you mention pertain to most intown Atlanta schools, at least at the middle and high school levels. And for the students who do have notions of inferiority or superiority, it is my belief that many already had them before they came to the school — they just use the school experience to reinforce or disprove what they are led to believe about themselves and others in their homes/communities.
FWIW, even in all-white or all-black schools, there is still a bit of striation based on socioeconomic status/class. So while it is true there’s a disproportionate number of poor black students in relation to middle class white students, this is somewhat tempered by the fact that all the black students are not poor. In fact, some come from similar environments as the white students. It’s just that in schools like Mary Lin, it’s only 10% or less.
Ultimately, I don’t necessarily think the answer is to advise a middle-class black family to avoid intown schools for this reason. They should avoid Mary Lin perhaps, but I’m pretty sure there are other viable alternatives within the city — if one should choose to live here.
Last edited by equinox63; 01-13-2022 at 08:53 PM..
While I agree with most of what you have written here, I think the socioeconomic/racial disparities that you speak of are more prevalent at the elementary school level than at the middle/high school level. If we are talking about situations in which a student is a trace-minority or a token, then I completely understand and agree about the psychological factors that you mention. For example, Mary Lin is only 10% black. I really wouldn’t consider that a racially mixed school. To me, it is more so like a white school with a few black students. But on the other hand, Grady/Midtown is about 34% black, and while a number of those students are low-income, some aren’t. But I can also add that Midtown does not do the best job of addressing the disparities within their school.
Truthfully, only about three clusters within APS would be considered somewhat diverse. Each middle/high school has their individual ways of addressing the socioeconomic diversity within their schools – some more effectively than others. Look at Drew Charter School, which has an overwhelming higher Black population and a slightly higher percentage of low-income students, yet the performance is on par with Midtown High.
Jackson HS, for example, is around 15% middle class white, about 44% low-income black, and around 41% middle class black. So I don’t think that necessarily represents the type of “trace-minority” dynamic that you are describing.
North Atlanta HS is like 34% white, 36% black, and 24% Latino. And there is a range of economic levels amongst the black and Latino students there as well.
So while I believe your points are very valid, I do not think that the negative or aggrandized perceptions that the students develop of themselves or others necessarily pertains to most intown Atlanta schools in their entirety, at least at the middle and high school level.
FWIW, even in all-white or all-black schools, there is still a bit of striation based on socioeconomic status/class. So while it is true there’s a disproportionate number of poor black students in relation to middle class white students, this is somewhat tempered by the fact that all the black students are not poor. In fact, some come from similar environments as the white students. It’s just that in schools like Mary Lin, it’s only 10% or less.
Ultimately, I don’t necessarily think the answer is to advise a middle-class black family to avoid intown schools for this reason. They should avoid Mary Lin perhaps, but I’m pretty sure there are other viable alternatives within the city — if one should choose to live here.
Well, OP has a 2y/o and probably no commute, not even considering the cost of a home, what APS cluster would you prefer over at least 4 of the better Gwinnett County clusters? *Maybe* an argument could be made for Drew, but it is a charter, and I am not sure if there is even a neighborhood where families are guarantied a spot—and I don’t think it goes through HS.
And it’s not that I was saying that intown options are bad. Choosing a school is usually a pick your poison sort of thing. If OP was working at Emory, Mary Lin would still be arguably preferable to spending over an hour in traffic—it is still a great school for black and white students. But, the racial and economic dynamic in certain (relatively affordable) high-performing OTP clusters is just better, and not just for black students.
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