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Old 07-16-2009, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,515 posts, read 4,248,978 times
Reputation: 2280

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
I'm done with this, because:

It's going nowhere. You believe what you do. Same here.
It's gotten way too off-topic. Start it up in the Politics section.
The elections of 2010 and 2012 will ultimately resolve these arguments.

An old friend of mine put it so eloquently..."I may not know everything, but I know the difference between chicken salad and chicken s**t."
Just when the party gets started, you walk out. It's just as well. I guess there is no reconciliation among us Atlantans, Georgians, and southerners of differing ethnicities. Maybe this country was doomed from the start. Hmm...
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,515 posts, read 4,248,978 times
Reputation: 2280
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay View Post
There's no absolute standard of fairness with which all would agree. Some argue that a flat percentage income tax is fair, others that a flat levy per person or family would be more fair. The thinking behind progressive taxation schemes is along the lines of Jesus' words that from those to whom much has been given, more will be expected. In this line of thinking, rich people have benefited from combinations of innate qualities, upbringing and opportunities that the poor lack, and it is not therefore "fair" for them to keep all their wealth, even if they have worked for it.

I'm not trying to change any minds here, just pointing out that in my opinion, arguments along the lines of "it's just not fair" are not very useful. All that kind of statement says is "it doesn't agree with my standard of fairness". However, it's quite obvious that we don't all have the same standards.
Yeah, ain't that the truth!
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:16 PM
 
Location: St Simons Island, GA
22,803 posts, read 34,848,293 times
Reputation: 14928
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Just when the party gets started, you walk out. It's just as well. I guess there is no reconciliation among us Atlantans, Georgians, and southerners of differing ethnicities. Maybe this country was doomed from the start. Hmm...
I have to ask, how is this a Southern thing? Or even about race? That has bothered me about your argument from the get-go. Seems to me that this is an issue that affects all Americans.
Walking out? No...I simply said take it to the appropriate forum. The mods have been very indulgent here IMHO.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:21 PM
 
1,304 posts, read 3,337,509 times
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I think a lot of Georgia counties should be consolidated. North Fulton with Forsyth.. Fulton with Dekalb and Clayton, Rockdale with Newton, Cobb with Douglas, Cherokee with Bartow and so on.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 22,438,186 times
Reputation: 3882
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
I have to ask, how is this a Southern thing? Or even about race? That has bothered me about your argument from the get-go. Seems to me that this is an issue that affects all Americans.
Walking out? No...I simply said take it to the appropriate forum. The mods have been very indulgent here IMHO.
FWIW, some the attitudes I've seen here about small government, the gov't keeping its hands out of citizen affairs, etc., seem to be far more prevalent down here in the Atlanta area than I remember seeing in the Twin Cities (MN is a state which would qualify as a "nanny state" to many of the posters here, I strongly suspect).

Having lived in such a state, I frankly don't understand some of the attitudes I've seen since I've moved down here. A live and let live attitude is fine, and I have a certain level of appreciation for keeping the government out of my personal business, but widespread attitudes along those lines also help (I think) to explain the relatively high level of political fragmentation in the state of Georgia, the relative lack of effective social services down here when compared to states like MN and WI, the lack of political will to create effective statewide water and transportation authorities in Georgia, etc.

It might not be a bad thing (I'm not really sure), but it's certainly different...
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,515 posts, read 4,248,978 times
Reputation: 2280
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
I have to ask, how is this a Southern thing? That has bothered me about your argument from the get-go. Seems to me that this is an issue that affects all Americans.
Walking out? No...I simply said take it to the appropriate forum. The mods have been very indulgent here IMHO.
I am glad you answered that question because I will answer in a most direct way. I say this is "southern thing" because it was the south that has fought most bitterly to maintian a system that supported unequal separation and enforcement, or should I say a lack thereof, of people's rights.

1st event that comes to mind: the Civil war. Granted, the North and President Lincoln did not have clean hands in regards to the reasoning for starting the war, but at the end of the day, at least there was an IDEAL that blacks should have equality, even if there was not enough political and social support for it. I wish the same can said for the south.

2nd event that comes to mind: Wilmington, North Carolina in the 1898 Insurrection/coup-de-tat, ground zero for the beginning of official state government sponsored denial of individual rights.

Now I can name a lot more stuff, but that would be borderline insane. My point is that this history and many more tragic events like it have happened mainly in the south, and that alone has paved the way for the often times precarious relationships that we southerners of difference have with each other currently.

How can you explain to me the righteousness of these "tax protests" when all along there was never any genuine support for sharing resources with people of color? Now you can discount everything I just said, and in fact I expect it. But what you can't say is that I haven't least tried articulate my reasons for delivering opinions in the manner that I have.

Whether you choose to accept what I say is on you, and anyways since the power is in numbers, you and others like you will have your way anyways, regardless of what anyone else says to the contrary. It's the American way...
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:45 PM
 
925 posts, read 2,286,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
FWIW, some the attitudes I've seen here about small government, the gov't keeping its hands out of citizen affairs, etc., seem to be far more prevalent down here in the Atlanta area than I remember seeing in the Twin Cities (MN is a state which would qualify as a "nanny state" to many of the posters here, I strongly suspect).

Having lived in such a state, I frankly don't understand some of the attitudes I've seen since I've moved down here. A live and let live attitude is fine, and I have a certain level of appreciation for keeping the government out of my personal business, but widespread attitudes along those lines also help (I think) to explain the relatively high level of political fragmentation in the state of Georgia, the relative lack of effective social services down here when compared to states like MN and WI, the lack of political will to create effective statewide water and transportation authorities in Georgia, etc.

It might not be a bad thing (I'm not really sure), but it's certainly different...
Mr. Steiner, a few points to make:

1. Minnesota is one of the most liberal states in the U.S., and definitely the most liberal within the midwest.

2. Midwestern States such as Missouri, Kansas, and, to a lesser extent, Ohio, are more in-line with "southern" way of thinking.

3. Many non-southern states believe in limited government and constitutional governance, such as Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and even New Hampshire, not to mention the midwestern states already pointed out.

4. States with vastly different demographics from the south are going to think differently about the possibility of success of a socialized form of government. Southerners have seen the massive waste and the lack of success, given the overwhelming number of people with a hand-out, something of which is less common in the uppermidwest, given different demographics. Hence, we're less apt to even support it at the state level.

5. The "Southern" way of thinking, as you put it, is nothing more than a true "American" way of thinking along the lines of limited government and constitutional governance, founded and implemented upon by men such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton. Certainly you're not saying that you support government control that runs contrary to the founding of this country?
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:50 PM
 
Location: East Cobb
2,206 posts, read 6,065,346 times
Reputation: 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
FWIW, some the attitudes I've seen here about small government, the gov't keeping its hands out of citizen affairs, etc., seem to be far more prevalent down here in the Atlanta area than I remember seeing in the Twin Cities (MN is a state which would qualify as a "nanny state" to many of the posters here, I strongly suspect).

Having lived in such a state, I frankly don't understand some of the attitudes I've seen since I've moved down here. A live and let live attitude is fine, and I have a certain level of appreciation for keeping the government out of my personal business, but widespread attitudes along those lines also help (I think) to explain the relatively high level of political fragmentation in the state of Georgia, the relative lack of effective social services down here when compared to states like MN and WI, the lack of political will to create effective statewide water and transportation authorities in Georgia, etc.

It might not be a bad thing (I'm not really sure), but it's certainly different...
Thanks, RC! As a British Columbian I'd spent reasonable amounts of time in some of the nearby states before moving here, and popular attitudes up there seemed fairly familiar to me. Here in Georgia, it's sometimes hard to believe it's the same country. From my limited experience of the US, the idea that government is just an all-around bad thing seems like a very southern phenomenon.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,515 posts, read 4,248,978 times
Reputation: 2280
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
FWIW, some the attitudes I've seen here about small government, the gov't keeping its hands out of citizen affairs, etc., seem to be far more prevalent down here in the Atlanta area than I remember seeing in the Twin Cities (MN is a state which would qualify as a "nanny state" to many of the posters here, I strongly suspect).

Having lived in such a state, I frankly don't understand some of the attitudes I've seen since I've moved down here. A live and let live attitude is fine, and I have a certain level of appreciation for keeping the government out of my personal business, but widespread attitudes along those lines also help (I think) to explain the relatively high level of political fragmentation in the state of Georgia, the relative lack of effective social services down here when compared to states like MN and WI, the lack of political will to create effective statewide water and transportation authorities in Georgia, etc.

It might not be a bad thing (I'm not really sure), but it's certainly different...
Here's the thing: If it was simply about "live and let live" then conversations like these would be a non-issue. But it has NEVER been that way and it drives me nuts when my fellow Georgians will discount that inconvenient fact when suits them to do so.

If only there was a respect for property rights across the board after the civil war. If only Plessy V. Ferguson never happened. If only the City Government of Wlimington, NC back in 1898 was respected rather than overthrown to suit needs of a tyrannical racial oligarchy.

How can people blindly argue this "less government" and this "states rights" stuff and totally refuse to acknowledge the downsides to these arguments is beyond me! Unfortunately it only happens in the south. Until there is acknowledgement and reconciliation by all people in the region on this sordid and sad history there will never be understanding and an appreciation for "less government" or "states rights".

I hope that this is understood.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:57 PM
 
925 posts, read 2,286,829 times
Reputation: 529
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
I am glad you answered that question because I will answer in a most direct way. I say this is "southern thing" because it was the south that has fought most bitterly to maintian a system that supported unequal separation and enforcement, or should I say a lack thereof, of people's rights.
What unequal separation and enforcement? How does this relate to today, some 150 years later?

Quote:
1st event that comes to mind: the Civil war. Granted, the North and President Lincoln did not have clean hands in regards to the reasoning for starting the war, but at the end of the day, at least there was an IDEAL that blacks should have equality, even if there was not enough political and social support for it. I wish the same can said for the south.
Blacks were PROPERTY/FARM EQUIPMENT at the time, believe it or not.
Per capita, free blacks owned more slaves than free whites.
Only 2% of southern whites owned slaves.
Slavery had existed since the beginning of time in all societies.
Africans sold their own people into slavery. In fact, many of them were ALREADY enslaved in Africa. Individuals bought slaves from Africans, much like you would another product.
Europeans were the first to end slavery.
Slavery still exists in many parts of Africa today, as does cannibalism.
Freeing the slaves was not the reason for the war, nor did Lincoln ever believe in equality for negroes.
Lincoln made up the argument for emancipation half way into the Civil War, as a way to get the public behind his war, as support was waining. You see, slaves, even those on southern plantations, made it harder for northern farmers to make a living, given the differences in costs (much like you see between workers in the U.S. and China today). Hence, ending slavery would mean that the workers would be able to compete, and if doing such, via the war meant that they'd be able to live more comfortably, then they were more apt to support the war.
Interruption of commerce, unfair taxation, tariffs on certain exports and imports that unfairly burdened the southern states were a number of reasons for the south seceding. The fact that Lincoln tried to antagonize the south into attacking union ships, thus starting a conflict, speaks volumes.

Lincoln never believed that the negro was equal to the caucasian man, and he even had a plan to expatriate them all back to Africa. It's likely that the vast majority of blacks in the US would not be here if Lincoln had not been assassinated.


Quote:
How can you explain to me the righteousness of these "tax protests" when all along there was never any genuine support for sharing resources with people of color?
What relevance is this to today's time, and the fact that such measures are unconstitutional?
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