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Old 07-16-2009, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,461 posts, read 4,113,545 times
Reputation: 2157

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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Mr. Steiner, a few points to make:

1. Minnesota is one of the most liberal states in the U.S., and definitely the most liberal within the midwest.

2. Midwestern States such as Missouri, Kansas, and, to a lesser extent, Ohio, are more in-line with "southern" way of thinking.

3. Many non-southern states believe in limited government and constitutional governance, such as Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and even New Hampshire, not to mention the midwestern states already pointed out.

4. States with vastly different demographics from the south are going to think differently about the possibility of success of a socialized form of government. Southerners have seen the massive waste and the lack of success, given the overwhelming number of people with a hand-out, something of which is less common in the uppermidwest, given different demographics. Hence, we're less apt to even support it at the state level.

5. The "Southern" way of thinking, as you put it, is nothing more than a true "American" way of thinking along the lines of limited government and constitutional governance, founded and implemented upon by men such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton. Certainly you're not saying that you support government control that runs contrary to the founding of this country?
Liberal states are often liberal because of an unfortunate(or fortunate depending on who is reading this) lack of non-european diversity. "Southern" thinking is very apparent in populations with a high amount of "diversity." This only underscores the sad reality that we humans are still driven by primitive prejudices and biases.
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:44 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,794 posts, read 11,724,981 times
Reputation: 5394
Default http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_Sixteenth_Amendment_arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Then I'd imagine that you'd have called the individuals to the Boston Tea Party "whiners", or you'd have called the Founding Fathers or the Minute Men "whiners".
No, I would call them patriots.

Unfortunately, today's "Teabaggers" fail to realize they have nothing at all in common with the Boston Tea Party. The people in Boston and everyone else in colonial America lived under the despotic thumb of a autocratic king on the other side of the ocean and had no say or representation on how their taxes were used or how their government was run. You have representation and in fact ARE the government along with every other citizen. Just because you don't like who's running it at the moment doesn't mean you are being held down in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Some states have no income tax. "America" doesn't work under a socialist tax code. In fact, for much of its history, there was no income tax. Added to that, the "income tax" amendment was never properly ratified, despite the fact that many of the documents say that it was.
Three things here.

1. Yes, some states don't have income tax, but they do have property and sales tax or a combination of other taxes. How else would those governments pay for things? With magic beans?

2. Using your logic about the amount of time income tax has been around, we should also get rid of light bulbs and clean water too since for most of human history people didn't have that either.

3. Yes the 16th Amendment was ratified and it is an out and out fraud perpetrated by one individual that has led to this false believe. Here's an well researched Wikipedia article (shocker) that proves exactly that: Tax protester Sixteenth Amendment arguments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
What is "Progressive" about it? I get tired of Socialists calling themselves "Progressive", when they're actually "Regressive", as taxing people more stifles innovation, causes businesses to lay off people, raises unemployment rates, and causes the prices of products to rise.
Definition of progressive in relation to the term "Progressive Taxation":

pro . gres . sive (adj.) - Increasing in rate as the taxable amount increases.

This is how pretty much all forms of taxation work in some way or another. If you make more you pay more. If you buy a more expensive car then you pay more tax for it than you would for a cheaper car. Even under a flat tax system the amount tax paid would vary depending on how much is spent. Or do you believe people should pay one single amount of tax no matter how much they make or the amount that they purchase?

I won't follow your red herring of calling Democrats and Progressives socialists. Are there people from this group who believe in socialist ideals? Of course, it is a left leaning group. However, the jack booted idea that you have conjured up in your head of American socialism/leftism is not in the mainstream nor rooted in reality. Plus that line of attack reaaaaly didn't work out to well for our opposition in the last election now did it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Where is it noted in the U.S. Constitution that paying taxes is a RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen? It isn't there. Furthermore, as stated, the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified.
Where is specifically stated in the Constitution that you shouldn't hit people with your car or spit in your neighbors eye? The Constitution isn't the Ten Commandments, it's the framework that establishes the legal authority of the republic. I'd really wish the "government is evil" crowd would get this threw their heads. If you don't like that, start a civil war or go away and start your own country. Don't make up falsehoods about what the Constitution is and isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
It's your duty, huh? What socialist told you that?
I assume you like clean water, paved roads, the military, clean food, and sewer systems. What do you think pays for those things? If no one paid taxes then those things would not exist. Thus it is a citizens duty to pay taxes for the benefit of our society. Not doing so is shirking your responsibility and an act of *******ery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Sure, it would work. However, it'd probably bankrupt Fulton County and the city of Atlanta. Milton County would be doing just fine and dandy.
No it wouldn't. This supposed Milton County wouldn't exist without Atlanta. If Atlanta fails then they will fail too. I really don't see how this would be fine and dandy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Surely you're kidding. Aside from non-whites, those groups who are generally against America's historical founding and constitutional governance, most people in North Fulton are conservative-minded. I don't see the demographics shifting to the point where it'd be anything like East Atlanta. That little neighborhood is loaded with flamers, and they're as left wing as you can get. Such would be quite a jump to say that people in Alpharetta would rather vote for a hard core socialist compared to a constitutionally-inspired conservative. Dream on.
That's some serious hate there bub. No need for me to respond, bigotry makes a fool of itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Again, why do you keep calling it "Progressive" to be a socialist, when it doesn't result in any progress. It only destroys the economy.
*Sigh*
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,844 posts, read 14,514,272 times
Reputation: 3484
I thought about jumping into this thread several times, but have just been too busy. I do want to add a couple of comments for whatever it's worth or not worth.

First, government, especially local government, should only provide those things that individuals cannot practically provide for themselves. Things such roads, schools, police, fire, and in the case of the feds....the military. Income taxes and wasteful spending appear nowhere in the original and unamended constitution (until the 16th amendment). States such as New Hampshire have it correct. They have no income tax, no sales tax, a part time citizen legislature, and responsible local government. If only it wasn't so damn cold there.

As for the racial stuff that seems to have crept into this thread, why does everything always have to come back to race? It's time for people to start to embrace MLK's dream and look beyond the excuses.
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:16 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,794 posts, read 11,724,981 times
Reputation: 5394
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Income taxes and wasteful spending appear nowhere in our constitution. States such as New Hampshire have it correct. They have no income tax, no sales tax, a part time citizen legislature, and responsible local government.
Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just because you don't like the income tax doesn't mean "it's not there". I don't "like" it either, but I see its need. A better debate is how it's broken and full of loop holes that need to fixed.
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,461 posts, read 4,113,545 times
Reputation: 2157
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just because you don't like the income tax doesn't mean "it's not there". I don't "like" it either, but I see its need. A better debate is how it's broken and full of loop holes that need to fixed.
Great response!
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,844 posts, read 14,514,272 times
Reputation: 3484
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just because you don't like the income tax doesn't mean "it's not there". I don't "like" it either, but I see its need. A better debate is how it's broken and full of loop holes that need to fixed.
I knew full well about the 16th amendment, and even edited my post about the same exact time you posted. My point was the founding fathers never envisioned an income tax, and for more than 130 years we got along fine without it.

As for getting rid of the loopholes, I'm all for it. I could support a flat tax that took the same percentage from every citizen. The more you make, the more they'd take, but it would be fair. Today, you have a system where some people pay absolutely no tax and get "refundable credits" while other people are penalized for success and get soaked in order to support social aims.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:14 PM
 
Location: West Cobb County, GA (Atlanta metro)
9,190 posts, read 29,570,003 times
Reputation: 5091
WARNING

This thread is VERY close to being closed. Stay on topic, and stop fighting. Warning infractions have gone out. The next ones suspend accounts if this continues. We're not here to read jabs by a handful of people.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:22 PM
 
925 posts, read 2,228,746 times
Reputation: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
No, I would call them patriots.

Unfortunately, today's "Teabaggers" fail to realize they have nothing at all in common with the Boston Tea Party. The people in Boston and everyone else in colonial America lived under the despotic thumb of a autocratic king on the other side of the ocean and had no say or representation on how their taxes were used or how their government was run. You have representation and in fact ARE the government along with every other citizen. Just because you don't like who's running it at the moment doesn't mean you are being held down in some way.
Have you read the Declaration of Independence? There is by far more overstepping of powers today than was experienced during the days of King George. Taxation is far more burdensome. Regulations and prohibitions are far more restrictive than during the original tea party. As such, I'd say that the "Teabaggers" are within their rights, and are doing such with a firm head on their shoulders.

Quote:
Three things here.

1. Yes, some states don't have income tax, but they do have property and sales tax or a combination of other taxes. How else would those governments pay for things? With magic beans?
I don't dispute the fact that states can collect taxes for such. It is allocated to the states in the U.S. Constitution for all items not allotted to the federal government by said document to be the power of the states, or the people therewithin.

Quote:
2. Using your logic about the amount of time income tax has been around, we should also get rid of light bulbs and clean water too since for most of human history people didn't have that either.
The argument here is against federal income tax, and, even then, it's not fairly done.

Quote:
3. Yes the 16th Amendment was ratified and it is an out and out fraud perpetrated by one individual that has led to this false believe. Here's an well researched Wikipedia article (shocker) that proves exactly that: Tax protester Sixteenth Amendment arguments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quoting a Wikipedia article is like hiring someone without any architectural experience to design a building. The point being that neither are very reliable.

Quote:
Definition of progressive in relation to the term "Progressive Taxation":

pro . gres . sive (adj.) - Increasing in rate as the taxable amount increases.
Okay, I see the point. However, the word progress, in this context, has nothing to do with bettering society, which is another form of the definition, and of which "progressives" hope to benefit from by using the term.

Quote:
This is how pretty much all forms of taxation work in some way or another. If you make more you pay more. If you buy a more expensive car then you pay more tax for it than you would for a cheaper car. Even under a flat tax system the amount tax paid would vary depending on how much is spent. Or do you believe people should pay one single amount of tax no matter how much they make or the amount that they purchase?
No. This is not how all forms of taxation work. As stated, there is such a thing as a flat tax. Why should someone pay a GREATER PERCENT of their income, simply because they make more? Doing such puts companies out of business, discourages improvement, and puts people out of work. Bad for the economy.

Quote:
I won't follow your red herring of calling Democrats and Progressives socialists.
Look up the definition of Socialist. They are socialists. You can try to sugarcoat it all you want, but that's what they are, aside from a lone "blue dog" here and there.

Quote:
Are there people from this group who believe in socialist ideals? Of course, it is a left leaning group.
That's 90% of the Democrat Party at the Federal Level.

Quote:
However, the jack booted idea that you have conjured up in your head of American socialism/leftism is not in the mainstream nor rooted in reality.
Yes, it is mainstream, and thousands of websites, hundreds of popular radio broadcasts, thousands of journalists, and thousands of politicians have pointed it out, and have shown them to be what they are: Socialists.

What is a Socialist

[SIZE=4]so⋅cial⋅ism[/SIZE] /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA

Use socialism in a Sentence

–noun 1.a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.2.procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.


Federal Takeover of GM and Chrysler, banking, as well as pushes for socialized medicine. Don't forget about cap & trade, and the environmental impact control of the means of production that will come to nearly any business once implemented.

Quote:
Plus that line of attack reaaaaly didn't work out to well for our opposition in the last election now did it?
People were tired of the Iraq war and George Bush. It was a vote against Bush more than anything, and the mantras of "Hope" and "Change", despite not knowing what Obama was about, caused many to vote for him. Also having the mainstream media never report your bad side helps.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:49 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,794 posts, read 11,724,981 times
Reputation: 5394
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
I knew full well about the 16th amendment, and even edited my post about the same exact time you posted.
That's cool. We all have thoughts that start off at one point, then diverge when we go "Oh crap, I meant something different".


Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
My point was the founding fathers never envisioned an income tax, and for more than 130 years we got along fine without it.
That's true, they didn't. They also so no need to get rid of slaver and give full citizenship rights to people of color and white women. Times change. Despite their shortcomings, the genius of the "founders" in creating this country is that they allowed for our republic to be fluid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
As for getting rid of the loopholes, I'm all for it. I could support a flat tax that took the same percentage from every citizen. The more you make, the more they'd take, but it would be fair. Today, you have a system where some people pay absolutely no tax and get "refundable credits" while other people are penalized for success and get soaked in order to support social aims.
I'm not at all convinced a flat tax is more fair. For instance, let's set an arbitrary flat tax rate at 15%. While that would great for big item purchases, I'm not really keen on paying 15% tax on a pack of gum. The beauty in my opinion with an progressive tax is that the tax can be weighted on the amount of the item. Essential to life items like food and clothing should have a lower tax than things like land.

As for the merits of the Earned Income Tax Credit and no income tax levied on segments of the population, I'm in favor of reform and the streamlining of the distribution process, but it's an absolute necessity in our society.

People who are against it often forget that this is a country that has nearly 400 million people. Most of them just make enough to get by. A whole lot of Americans make way less than enough to get by. I'm not talking about the image of the shiftless, welfare sycophants that are often brought up when talking about this. There are millions of people in this country who work hard every day, but due to numerous reasons, don't earn enough to make ends meet let alone save up to get out of their economic situation. It's against the "America way" to say merely that they just need to work harder and stop complaining. They deserve a level playing field in order to advance. Once they do advance they pay their fair share.

Let's also deluded ourselves in this Randian fantasy of the top wage earner whom is penalized for "being successful". There a numerous right offs that rich and wealthy people can take advantage of that lower income people can not. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a millionaire who was forced to live in a run down house or had to drive a Geo Metro because the government was taking all of their money away.

Getting back to original topic, those who are advocates of North Fulton breaking away from the rest of the county need to realize that instead of figuratively taking their toys and going home, they need to be more active in the development of this county.

For instance, someone in an earlier thread lamented the fact that in their north county neighborhood, the traffic on one particular street was unbearable due to poor planning of traffic patters and street lights. You don't need to break away from the whole county to fix this problem. A stronger NPU like structure should be created in that area where people who live in the area identify the problem, debate the problem and come up with a solution in a planning unit, go to the county with a proposal and work out a funding mechanism, and get something done.

Fulton County doesn't need to broken up, we need stronger community level planning and coordination with the larger county government.

Of course in my view it seems that those who are screaming loudest for the creation of Milton County are only doing so because they despise the City of Atlanta and everything about it.
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Old 07-17-2009, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,461 posts, read 4,113,545 times
Reputation: 2157
Ladies and gentleman of this thread, my apologies for any personal insults that I have given. I will try to contain myself next time.
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