Moving to Atlanta Area (West Point: high school, college, live)

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay

We're definitely not comparing apples and apples, here.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Obviously, rural Georgia must have some really terrible schools, in order for the state to be doing so poorly on high school graduation rate and other measures. This is a serious problem for the state. But all these posts from well-intentioned people who lack personal exposure to the school system, suggesting that schools like Walton are pretty terrible compared to schools up north....! Academically, Walton is one of the highest ranked public high schools in the country. That's the truth.

I just thought the numbers were interesting, but (a) I realized right away that they might not be measuring the same thing, and (b) I did not extrapolate anything about the general school quality of Walton at all from the numbers. Test results measure a student's test taking ability, and say very little about school policy or curriculum.

From other comments in these forums, it's been quite obvious that Walton is a very good school.

As an aside, though: I'm not sure how the "higher ranked in the country" statement comes about except as the result of certain lists which have already been roundly criticized in these forums -- I certainly make no similar claims about the Twin Cities schools that I know from objective measures to to be the best in that state. There is simply no way to objectively compare them to schools outside of Minnesota, so I don't presume to make such statements about Edina, Minnetonka, etc., even though it might very well be true.

[RainyRainyDay]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

As an aside, though: I'm not sure how the "higher ranked in the country" statement comes about except as the result of certain lists which have already been roundly criticized in these forums -- I certainly make no similar claims about the Twin Cities schools that I know from objective measures to to be the best in that state. There is simply no way to objectively compare them to schools outside of Minnesota, so I don't presume to make such statements about Edina, Minnetonka, etc., even though it might very well be true.

I agree with you. I was going over the top there a bit, venting my exasperation with a whole series of posts of which yours just happened to be the latest representative. Walton was ranked in the low 100s on the Newsweek list, but as you've been particularly keen to point out, those lists are absurdly limited. Comparing SAT scores is pretty pointless too, especially at the state-to-state level, and the College Board warns against it, but we go right on doing it none the less. Look at all the wailing in the AJC about Georgia's "failure".

In fact, yes, the way to evaluate a school is up close and personal. On those grounds, several regular posters on this forum, hailing from Canada (moi), NJ, Massachusetts, etc., and apparently not fools, regularly testify that wow, the northside Cobb/Cherokee/Fulton public schools are noticeably superior to the schools "back home". Meanwhile, from people who get their information from reading the state-level SAT scores, or who went to school here decades ago, we get head-shaking posts over how dismal Georgia schools - ALL Georgia schools - are compared to the rest of the country, and how we shouldn't have our heads in the sands over this but be more ready to acknowledge the problem, and how if and when they have kids they'll have to buck up for private school to save their kids from the tragedy of a Georgia public education.

Meanwhile, my child is frowning over her matrix problems, showing good progress in French fluency, writing very literate essays, and so forth. Admittedly, she's in the "gifted" category. But still, I can't really imagine how she could be getting significantly more or better academics anywhere else. So I get a bit, uh, reactive, over comments about how lousy the schools are around here.

[masonbarge]

Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay

My kid is currently working with matrices - determinants, inverting, solving systems of linear equations etc. - as a high school freshman.

That's exactly what I took as a freshman over 40 years ago. I'm not saying that you aren't correct that the school is doing a good job. In fact, I'm glad (even relieved) to learn that freshmen are still taking rigorous courses in the introductory math sequence.

One thing they do have now, that wasn't offered in my day, is an AP test in probability and statistics.

[GF72]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Let's put all this in perspective, though.

Walton's scores were 562 in Reading, 580 in Math, and 555 in Writing, or 1697 total.

Meanwhile, the mean SAT score for the entire state of Minnesota for 2007-08 was 596 in Reading, 609 in Math, and 579 in Writing. That's 1784 total.

Assuming we're comparing apples and apples, Walton isn't very impressive.

Of course, the SAT is administered somewhat more selectively in MN due to the fact that most colleges in the area tend to focus on the ACT, so I suspect that has a rather large impact on the scores achieved.

For the record, I never bothered to take the SAT when I went to high school in MN. My ACT score was good enough for me to not care about it.

That's not apples to apples at all.

5,000 kids in the entire state of Minnesota took the SAT. That's basically the 5,000 smartest kids in the whole state, the kids that know they are going to do well because they are applying to rigorous colleges.

Over here in GA, Walton High alone has 2,600 students, 100% of which take the SAT. Same for Northview.

So Walton and Northview combined have more students taking the SAT than the entire state of Minnesota, and their SAT average is almost as high. Basically, that's saying the entire population in those schools did almost as well as the top 10% of Minnesota students.

In case you wondering, the SAT average for the top 10% of Walton students is a whopping 1510 out of 1600. (this information was in Walton's 80 page charter renewal application, look it up if you want), which is far higher than Minnesota's 1205 out of 1600, which as mentioned is only taken by the top 10% of the state's students.

[matt8325]

Originally Posted by GF72

That's not apples to apples at all.

5,000 kids in the entire state of Minnesota took the SAT. That's basically the 5,000 smartest kids in the whole state, the kids that know they are going to do well because they are applying to rigorous colleges.

Over here in GA, Walton High alone has 2,600 students, 100% of which take the SAT. Same for Northview.

So Walton and Northview combined have more students taking the SAT than the entire state of Minnesota, and their SAT average is almost as high. Basically, that's saying the entire population in those schools did almost as well as the top 10% of Minnesota students.

In case you wondering, the SAT average for the top 10% of Walton students is a whopping 1510 out of 1600. (this information was in Walton's 80 page charter renewal application, look it up if you want), which is far higher than Minnesota's 1205 out of 1600, which as mentioned is only taken by the top 10% of the state's students.

Why do so many people in GA take the SAT compared to Minnesota ?

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by matt8325

Why do so many people in GA take the SAT compared to Minnesota ?

Most of the colleges and universities in Minnesota (and the upper midwest in general) consider the ACT to be a more reliable test for prospective college students, so the SAT isn't really given as much attention.

Also, people up there decide to take it themselves, and generally only if they intend to go to college. Why pay to take a test unless that test provides some actual benefit? I can understand the benefit to the schools (measurement), but not to the students.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by GF72

Over here in GA, Walton High alone has 2,600 students, 100% of which take the SAT. Same for Northview.

What good does such a test provide for a student who has no intention of going to college?

[dian2day]

This all depends on WHERE in Norcross. If it's right off of 85, then you could live in my area - NE Atlanta - DeKalb County - and drive against traffic (a major plus) and find quality homes in the $300-$400 range (mostly older homes with fabulous potential) that have great yards and lots of pool communities.

Think Briarcliff Road - north and south of Clairmont. The area of Sagamore Hills Elementary (great school/high scores) feeds Shamrock Middle which feeds Druid Hills is North/South of Clairmont. Lots of thoroghfares to beat major road conjestion.

Oak Grove Elementary (feeds Henderson Middle and Lakeside HS) is on the north side; price ranges are a little higher than the south side. but they are leveling out quickly b/c of area, lot size, etc.

This is a great place to live. Very Generational. Plenty for kids and seniors to do! Welcome!

[RainyRainyDay]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

What good does such a test provide for a student who has no intention of going to college?

I suspect that the proportion of Walton graduates who have no intention of going to college is very close to zero.

Looking further afield, in today's economy, there aren't many good jobs for people without some higher education, and that pool of jobs is expected to continue shrinking. Thus Georgia schools are presently trying to encourage every student to consider college a live option in their future, and hence the large proportion of Georgia seniors writing the SAT, which has historically been the test of choice down here. This does lead to much lower state-average SAT scores, naturally. But would you say the thinking behind it is wrong? I think it's realistic to tell today's high school students that if they want to become materially prosperous adults, they'd better be seriously considering aiming for a college education.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay

I suspect that the proportion of Walton graduates who have no intention of going to college is very close to zero.

That may be, but I know a number of people who wanted to start their own businesses or get into sales after high school ... or join the military ... and who have been quite successful at it. Those people are doing rather well now for the most part -- some of them far better than I am in some respects.

For them, higher education sometimes came later as the desire to raise in the ranks even further became apparent. One good friend of mine has a Bachelor's degree as well as an MBA, both earned after he left the military, but college wasn't in his plans at all initially.

Higher education sometimes isn't needed at all, however. A good friend of mine bounced around between jobs after high school and finally found a niche as a finance guy which he has now built into a very successful Twin Cities finance company with its own building and a few dozen underlings. Another (one of my younger brothers) is a successful sales consultant, having worked his way up from door-to-door sales to managing small business sales accounts to corporate sales trainer.

Such a path isn't as rare (or as bad) as you seem to portray it.

I do like the idea that Georgia encourages making college an option, but I also suspect that there is a certain percentage of people even at a high school like Walton who would rather do something else, who have legitimate goals and talents that lie in other directions, or who simply aren't smart enough for a college program.

Of course, the latter case would be weeded out by the test and (probably) by high school GPA.