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Unread 08-28-2008, 01:04 PM
 
1,591 posts, read 3,305,642 times
Reputation: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPD View Post
I think students should be encouraged to attend trade or voc. schools.

You make more money as an auto mechanic than someone with an english degree (aka bookstore wage slave), anyway.

agreed
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Unread 08-28-2008, 01:13 PM
 
Location: East Cobb
2,205 posts, read 3,829,469 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinetreelover View Post
As private school annual fund callers will tell you - tuition does not completely cover the cost of educating the student. Private schools are dependent upon donations to annual funds, fine arts alliance, booster club, capital campaign...and so on, and so on, and so on.... Therefore, I don't think you can make a direct comparison between these figures.
I believe you, pinetreelover. However, I was posting the numbers in response to this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
As proven by the fact that per student expenditures in the City of Atlanta and DeKalb Co school systems both exceed that of any private school in the area.
It appeared to me that tuition fees alone were adequate to refute this claim. So I didn't bother pointing out that private schools actually spend even more. LovinDecatur subsequently conceded (I think) that apparently APS and DeKalb schools don't currently spend more per student than the private schools do.

I believe public schools normally have considerably lower per-student expenditure than private schools. If they didn't, well gosh, I think the electorate would have woken up to the "fact" by now. We could lower taxes and give everyone a Westminster-style education. Wow!
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Unread 08-28-2008, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA (Dunwoody)
2,034 posts, read 2,328,931 times
Reputation: 914
I've got a relative who teaches at an exclusive boarding school and their per pupil expenditure exceeds $60k, while tuition is 'only' a little over half that. They make up the difference from their endowment, which is similar to that of an ivy league college. Presumably the schools around here do the same.
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Unread 08-28-2008, 01:33 PM
 
1,020 posts, read 1,434,112 times
Reputation: 505
Quote:
Great. I didn't say all poor people were gullible, but most assuredly, the majority of the people who are playing the lottery are both. Surely we don't believe that it's okay to take advantage of people simply because they're stupid?
No one is being taken advantage of. They are making a choice to buy the lotto ticket. Taking advantage of someone is would be using your authority to take money away from someone BY FORCE. Taking advantage of someone would be getting an old woman to give you her social security number because the "Water company is about to shut off her service" then using her credit to buy a Porsche. When one is forced or coerced into something, it is ethically wrong. However, it is common knowledge that you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than winning the lotto. Hell, most lotto websites will tell you you have a 1/x, x->infinity chance of winning! So, the lotto commission is not coercing anyone. If people choose to take their chances and think they can be that "1/x, x->infinity minority" that wins, then let them! No one is forcing them to buy the ticket.

Quote:
The question is not whether or not people could or should make choices. I think that's a given. The question is; Is it moral or ethical to take advantage of people who are gullible or stupid? I mean, if your neighbor places all his worldly goods out on the front lawn, he's certainly stupid, and is responsible if someone takes them, but isn't the person who takes his belongings responsible as well? Or does 'personal responsibility' only work in one direction? In my mind this is not a conversation about the responsibility of the people playing the lottery. I think we're all in agreement that playing the lottery is dumb. The question is, why are we so willing to take advantage of people's stupidity? Why is that okay?
Here's the thing, though. No body has STOLEN or TAXED these customers money away. It was voluntarily given away buy the consumer.
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Unread 08-28-2008, 01:38 PM
 
1,020 posts, read 1,434,112 times
Reputation: 505
Quote:
Now, some might say that they couldn't do it because most of those pre-schools are church-related, and that is true. But parents have a choice. One of Atlanta's greatest selling points is it's diversity and there seems to be a church-affiliated pre-school for every religion out there and even for those who aren't religious. Give people vouchers and send them on their merry way to choose the schools of their choice. The state isn't sponsoring religion if the parents have the freedom to choose whichever school they like.
We finally found some common ground...
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Unread 08-28-2008, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Dunwoody,GA
1,221 posts, read 2,438,311 times
Reputation: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb View Post
I've got a relative who teaches at an exclusive boarding school and their per pupil expenditure exceeds $60k, while tuition is 'only' a little over half that. They make up the difference from their endowment, which is similar to that of an ivy league college. Presumably the schools around here do the same.
Not to mention fund-raisers (Sally Foster wrapping paper, subscriptions), big events (silent auctions, golf tournaments, art auctions), the Annual Fund, and the Alumni phone-a-thon at most private schools. Trust me, you're not done once you've written that tuition check for the year!
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Unread 08-28-2008, 02:16 PM
 
3,330 posts, read 6,616,948 times
Reputation: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMMom View Post
Not to mention fund-raisers (Sally Foster wrapping paper, subscriptions), big events (silent auctions, golf tournaments, art auctions), the Annual Fund, and the Alumni phone-a-thon at most private schools. Trust me, you're not done once you've written that tuition check for the year!
And this is one of the big untold secrets of why vouchers won't work. Most public school parents don't give till it hurts the way private school parents do. Why? Who knows, but they don't.

Given them their voucher and they still won't expect to contribute additional dollars. Right now, private schools work because everyone understands the rules. Ask charter school operators across the country, those with middle class and better students, don't rake in the extra dollars that private schools with similar demographics do and in the latter case, the private school parents are paying tuition.

The private school my son attends cost nearly 50 percent more than the average per pupil spending in DeKalb and still my tuition covers just about 60 percent of the costs.
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Unread 08-28-2008, 02:30 PM
 
Location: East Cobb
2,205 posts, read 3,829,469 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastminutemom View Post
And this is one of the big untold secrets of why vouchers won't work. Most public school parents don't give till it hurts the way private school parents do. Why? Who knows, but they don't.

Given them their voucher and they still won't expect to contribute additional dollars. Right now, private schools work because everyone understands the rules. Ask charter school operators across the country, those with middle class and better students, don't rake in the extra dollars that private schools with similar demographics do and in the latter case, the private school parents are paying tuition.

The private school my son attends cost nearly 50 percent more than the average per pupil spending in DeKalb and still my tuition covers just about 60 percent of the costs.
I don't think it's a big untold secret. It's pretty darned obvious to anyone with an ounce of objectivity that private school is vastly more expensive than public school, and the voucher proposals don't account for that.

It seems to me that the problem is that government-haters live in fantasy land. That sounds outrageous, but that's how I see it. There seem to be masses of people down here in the South who unshakably believe that all social ills would disappear if we'd just hand over services like education to the private sector.

Well, actually, I guess I don't really believe they think that. They can't be so stupid. I think it's more likely that they don't really care about public education at all. (Yep, I line up with Roslyn on this one). They just figure that if they pretend to believe vouchers will work for everyone, they'll get more money in their pocket and they'll take care of their family in the way that they want to. And the disadvantaged will be free to take care of their families any way they want to, as well. Love that freedom.
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Unread 08-28-2008, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
9,915 posts, read 12,788,983 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb View Post
I doubt taking citizenship away would have any impact on the drop out rate. By the time the kid is that age he's going to drop out regardless (or be pushed out.) No, the key to preventing drop outs is to engage the child from the very beginning in the education process. A crucial component of that is parents who are thoroughly involved in the process and who feel that education is paramount in their child's life. Unfortunately, as I've said before, here in this country we tend to diminuate education and intellect in favor of brawn and muscle. That's why sports figures are 'heroes' and scientists who eradicate polio are 'geeks.'
Just FWIW, I agree with everything you say above. And the other paragraph, too, but I didn't want most of this posting to be a quote block.
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Unread 08-28-2008, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA (Dunwoody)
2,034 posts, read 2,328,931 times
Reputation: 914
Quote:
I think it's more likely that they don't really care about public education at all. (Yep, I line up with Roslyn on this one). They just figure that if they pretend to believe vouchers will work for everyone, they'll get more money in their pocket and they'll take care of their family in the way that they want to.
Precisely. Starve the beast. These people do not want public education to work. If education is truly universal where will they get the low-wage workers necessary to keep the wheels of capitalism churning?

Quote:
The private school my son attends cost nearly 50 percent more than the average per pupil spending in DeKalb and still my tuition covers just about 60 percent of the costs.
Exactly. The tuition at the preschool my son attended last year was actually quite reasonable. But we gave probably half again that much at various fund-raisers and miscellany, but we knew that going in. People who send their kids to private school know darn well that the tuition is barely the tip of the iceberg. It's even the same for college. I've got relatives with a couple of kids at Sewanee and despite the more than $30k for annual tuition (per child), they still get regular fundraising calls and letters.
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