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Old 08-31-2008, 10:36 AM
 
21 posts, read 90,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merin View Post
I think its sad that you think so little of this country, that you insults masses of people because they have a different ideology then you.
I don't think its because he has a different ideology. I like many of his "ideas" he just doesn't follow them up with reasonable plans of action. He wants to implement universal (social) healthcare and CUT taxes. So where are we getting the money to insure the some 20 Million need healthcare?

If we as a country can come together and fix our healthcare system, one by ending the frivolus lawsuits and insurance scams, and still boost the economy by cutting taxes I am all for it - I just don't like empty promises with no foundation.

 
Old 08-31-2008, 10:47 AM
 
Location: a warmer place
1,748 posts, read 5,523,666 times
Reputation: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLNewbie View Post
I don't think its because he has a different ideology. I like many of his "ideas" he just doesn't follow them up with reasonable plans of action. He wants to implement universal (social) healthcare and CUT taxes. So where are we getting the money to insure the some 20 Million need healthcare?

If we as a country can come together and fix our healthcare system, one by ending the frivolus lawsuits and insurance scams, and still boost the economy by cutting taxes I am all for it - I just don't like empty promises with no foundation.
I felt that way about the promise of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 10:48 AM
 
2,170 posts, read 2,860,345 times
Reputation: 883
Have you perused his 'Blueprint for change'? It's all like that. No concept of cost whatsoever. He's even stated he wanted to reallocate the money being appropriated for the Iraq war, dollar for dollar, to pay for his ideas. Hello....that money is being borrowed from places like China, Saudi Arabia and other countries. The only change we can afford at this stage is a radical reduction in spending and a gutting of social programs. We need to balance the budget and pay off the national debt. And we need to drill here and drill now.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 10:49 AM
 
21 posts, read 90,923 times
Reputation: 14
Yeah, I wish there was more to support that claim. But all in all, I can't disagree with the war. I know too many people from that area of the world that are grateful for what we have done and continue to do for them. They just won't show them on the news cause it supports the current Administration.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 10:52 AM
 
Location: East Cobb
2,206 posts, read 6,889,338 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
We can take that line of thinking and go down the line... but that distracts from the basic differences in this campaign between the tickets.

Ever heard of Tony Rezko? Ever heard Biden's recent blatant racist comments about Indian immigrants and his often discussed and blatant plagerism where he copied verbatim comments from a British political leader?

I even heard someone the other day mention Frank Keating when discussing McCain... what's next, bringing in their second grade teachers?
I agree that it's much more important to focus on the current campaign issues than the old stuff you mention. However, unlike some of these items dredged up from ancient history, Palin's ethics issue is currently under an independent investigation that was set in motion by a bipartisan committee of the Alaska legislature. I think that seems a bit more current and serious, and I question how people can trumpet her as a squeaky-clean reformer until the investigation is concluded.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 10:53 AM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,700,997 times
Reputation: 4209
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGACK View Post
Responding to your points in order:
  1. Any president needs to be able to appreciate the point of view of other countries but he needs to do that from a distinctly American point of view with an eye to advancing American interests first and foremost. Frankly, theres nothing in the last 50+ years of European history that recommends adopting or subscribing to a 'european view' whatsoever. And we already have relations with all the Middle Eastern countries so I'm not sure what you mean by opening doors here. If you mean negotiating with organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah, that would disqualify Obama immediately in my book. I do appreciate that he has been vocal in how he would support Israel, though I think that his support is tepid at best. Anything short of blanket and unqualified support of Israel won't satisfy me here. And Obama has already shown he's completely ignorant on Iran - 'that tiny country'.
  2. Actually, Obama has proven woefully ignorant in the area of foreign policy, almost as bad as George Dubya when he came in to office. His initial statment on Russia's invasion of Georgia displayed a complete lack of appreciation for Russian motives. And though Geogia may have spurred Russia to action Obama should have recognized that Russia's intentions were to make Georgia a satellite state. Biden's knowledge in foreign policy is suspect in my opinion. He did afterall suggest partioniong Iraq which is an idiotic proposal. And he was vocal in his opposition to the surge which has proven very effective. I question the value of Biden's advice since he has proven his vast knowledge only allows him to make bigger mistakes in this area.
  3. Rebuilding public infrastructure is important. Creating a new green collar(sic) economy is the job of the markets. It is not the role of government to direct capital or the economy. The market can and will take care of the transition to a green collar(sic) economy. The end result will likely differ from your ideal but capitalism is the most efficient means of making these changes, which are already in process. The best ideas and products will win out. A national healthcare system is not the role of goverment either. Let the market come up with the programs, plans and products. Some people are always going to fall through the cracks and a minimal safety net exists. For the millions who chose not to carry inusurance, they need to pray they don't get a catastrophic illness. The Canadian and European single payer approach is a disaster and the care is far below what we can receive here.
  4. Whether a President is introspective is entirely irrelevant. Clinton and Obama display an academic appreciation of issues which is a poor foundation for formulating policy. Clinton's need to analyze an issue was notorious and utterly unproductive. Policy wonks don't make it in business but they thrive in the insular worlds of academia and government where there is no accountability. All Clinton's domestic policy successes were based on ideas he appropriated from the republicans, e.g. welfare to work. His foreign policy was, on balance, totally ineffectual though I did support the US/NATO stance regarding Kosovo. And Clinton has admitted he completely failed to act to prevent the genocide in Ruwanda. As for evil, there are absolutes in this world, real right and wrong exists but it seems Obama can't comprehend that as his painfully nuanced answer shows:
With answers like that I'm surprised the man can decide what color socks to wear from day to day. All his answer does is convince me he doesn't have the mettle to make the really tough decisions in the area of foreign policy. Where Truman chose to drop the bombs on Japan I doubt Obama could make that decision because he'd be so caught up with whether or not by doing good (preventing millions of American casualties via an invasion of the Japanese mainland) we'd be doing evil by nuking Japan. That kind of naval gazing is a luxury a Commander in Chief cannot and should not engage in.

Enjoy the rest of the holiday weekend.
Well, ZGACK, your response is clearly rooted in a fundamentalist conservative worldview. What you assume to be "wrong" is simply a different understanding of the United States' role and potential. What you assume to be "hating" America and accusing people like me of thinking "America is the root of all evil in the world" is simply looking at our country and saying, "My God, we could do so much better." This is a common assumption made by conservatives and it is a wrong one. I challenge you to think outside your partisan box. You should read a book by philosopher Jacob Needleman called "The American Soul" to understand what our potential truly is.

The rugged individualism that birthed this country was one rooted in collaboration and support of others also pioneering a new country, not throwing those who couldn't make it to the wolves.

1. It's a barbaric society that forces its citizens to compete for their health. Would we ever create police and fire protection programs in which only those who could afford protection would receive it? Imagine houses burning in inner cities or out in Appalacia and politicians saying, "Well, they didn't work hard enough to afford that luxury. If they'd worked harder, the market would have worked harder for them."

call to 911: "Help! My child was kidnapped!"

911 operator: "I'm sorry to hear that. Do you have police insurance?"


It's also a barbaric society that creates a health care system in which it is in the self interest of those providing health care to provide as little of it as possible in order to maximize profits. Your fundamentalist worldview about markets' abilities to solve every problem (at least in our currently primitive state of evolution) is woefully naive. I'm ultimately a libertarian, but until we evolve to take care of ourselves and all others without government, we need both at this point.

Anyway - contrary to what partyliners (party liars?) would like you to believe, Obama's plan is not European or Canadian in nature. It maintains the market-based aspects that work well, but simply fills in the blanks for those who cannot afford it.

2. As for the foreign policy issues, even Bush has opened negotiations with Iran and set a timeline in Iraq. The invasion has been proven to be criminal and worthy of trial for murder. I'll take Obama's judgment supported by Biden's experience anyday.

3. I guess we'll just have to disagree about how much intelligence and introspective wisdom it takes to run our government. The lameduck presidency isn't even out of the oven yet and already you have forgotten the catastrophe that has become our nation due to a president charging ahead without thinking. What was once admired as "decisive" has been proven by those within the administration as simply "incompetent".

I, for one, think the most powerful position in the world should go to someone who was trained by some of the best universities in the world to think and formulate responses that reflect the complexity of the situations at hand rather than someone who came in 5th from last in his class and was trained as a fighter pilot to react on instinct and not look back. That is an important instinct to have as a pilot, but it got him shot down once before. We just can't afford for our whole nation to get shot down. We've already lost one engine.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 10:53 AM
 
21 posts, read 90,923 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGACK View Post
Have you perused his 'Blueprint for change'? It's all like that. No concept of cost whatsoever. He's even stated he wanted to reallocate the money being appropriated for the Iraq war, dollar for dollar, to pay for his ideas. Hello....that money is being borrowed from places like China, Saudi Arabia and other countries. The only change we can afford at this stage is a radical reduction in spending and a gutting of social programs. We need to balance the budget and pay off the national debt. And we need to drill here and drill now.
Yes, I saw one of his quotes when asked how he was going to pay for all these altruistic programs - he answered something like end the 18 Billion dollar war in Iraq - clearly not understanding how the budget works.

Like I said, he has great ideas and if we could fix all America's problems in one term of office that would be great. But we need to start with the political stuff - like getting rid of programs that do no good and enable people to be slothful, and pay politicians too much, and put money into foriegn governments instead of our own.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 11:02 AM
 
2,170 posts, read 2,860,345 times
Reputation: 883
BlueFly;

You should read the Federalist Papers and the Constitution to see what the Founders INTENDED.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,887 posts, read 17,185,835 times
Reputation: 3706
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay View Post
I agree that it's much more important to focus on the current campaign issues than the old stuff you mention. However, unlike some of these items dredged up from ancient history, Palin's ethics issue is currently under an independent investigation that was set in motion by a bipartisan committee of the Alaska legislature. I think that seems a bit more current and serious, and I question how people can trumpet her as a squeaky-clean reformer until the investigation is concluded.
I don't disagree with you actually, and I don't want a hypocrite on either ticket, but if we're discounting Palin, then we should also weigh in with the current Rezko and Wright associations, and Biden's recent racist comments. If Biden had been a Republican, he would have been excoriated, and rightly so. The silence on the left and in the media has been deafening.
 
Old 08-31-2008, 11:20 AM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,700,997 times
Reputation: 4209
I have read them. Thanks.

The brilliance of the leading founding fathers was their recognition that the struggle between those who want more federal power and less federal power is critical to the growth of a young nation (the same issues we have today).

You can be as partisan as you want, but history has proven that when liberals have complete control it is a disaster and when conservatives have complete control it is a disaster. We need the balance. The growth of a nation is not ideological. Right now, we need a shot of liberalism. In another 8 or 16 years, it may be time for conservatism. Hopefully, as happened in the 90s, we can have a Democratic president with a Republican congress. That's what statistically works best - not rabid ideology.

Seriously - read "The American Soul". You will see the spiritual underpinnings of this nation's founding and its brilliant potential when we begin to live from an understanding that "All is One".
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