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I'm not advocating that we all speak correctly all the time...but in certain situations we all NEED to know how to "clean up" our spoken language to project the image of an educated, intelligent person. I'm not talking about accent, but about speaking correctly...speaking properly - no matter what color or ethnicity. I could care less what kind of slang someone uses in public, on Marta, or anywhere else when it's a casual situation. One person's slang is no better or worse than another's.
I agree with this, however, when everyone around you speaks incorrectly, how does the correct way get ingrained into your head? People learn a lot of their characteristics of speech from that which they hear the most, namely, their friends, and parents come second. If everyone you know says "I ain't got nuttin to do wit dat", how are they supposed to know it's wrong? Even assuming they learn the correct sentence structure in an English class, can you see how unnatural it would be to feel and hear it the correct way? Unless you have parents or some other authority figure drill it into your head the correct way to speak, there are always going to be people butchering the English language.
I am not debating, I am telling you. I know the deal. I am just trying to help and educate people. I am not "jumping" on you.
You are really not being a nice person right now.
Oh, okay...I've been TOLD. You're funny...laying down the law to me or anyone else in this forum.
Believe it or not, I know the deal too. The deal is, you are very authoritative without any actual authority. There are other educated people online besides you who know "the deal".
I agree with this, however, when everyone around you speaks incorrectly, how does the correct way get ingrained into your head? People learn a lot of their characteristics of speech from that which they hear the most, namely, their friends, and parents come second. If everyone you know says "I ain't got nuttin to do wit dat", how are they supposed to know it's wrong? Even assuming they learn the correct sentence structure in an English class, can you see how unnatural it would be to feel and hear it the correct way? Unless you have parents or some other authority figure drill it into your head the correct way to speak, there are always going to be people butchering the English language.
If they attended school, they know it's incorrect...a high school diploma doesn't guarantee correct English, but it certainly helps a person understand the difference in "I ain't got nuttin'..." and "I don't have anything...". Someone would have to be totally uneducated to not see the difference - and simply because people around you speak incorrectly doesn't mean that you have to as well...and if you do, it doesn't mean that you can't understand the difference in slang and proper English.
I work with alot of blacks and their accents change as soon as they get on the phone with their 'buddie's', I'm not joking here. I think it's more of a social thing and not educational thing.
Reason being, is most people on here loving throwing around the 'redneck' phrase just b/c of how someone talks. I have a slight Southern drawl, not much, but enough to make 'educated' people think I'm a redneck. Why? B/c they find out I shoot guns, I'm a republican, I fish trout, and actually know how to change my oil.
Even though, I'm a Senior Software Engineer with a CS degree from Tech, you know, one of those 'nerds'.
It's all perception. You'll rarely meet someone who speeks ebonics, and nothing but ebonics, it's kind of a social thing.
LOL cool man, good points. I know you are not joking about the switching of the lingo. I do it as well so I know other black college grads do it. To me its like you working with a Hispanic worker and when they get on the phone wit buddies, they speak spanish mixed with a lil english here and there.
I guess we can say there is a time and place for everything. It just some people don't know when and where to speak "their comfort lingo" GT you probably speak the same way to everyone you talk to right, no changing of the speech right?
LOL cool man, good points. I know you are not joking about the switching of the lingo. I do it as well so I know other black college grads do it. To me its like you working with a Hispanic worker and when they get on the phone wit buddies, they speak spanish mixed with a lil english here and there.
I guess we can say there is a time and place for everything. It just some people don't know when and where to speak "their comfort lingo" GT you probably speak the same way to everyone you talk to right, no changing of the speech right?
Again, he's talking about an accent, not slang...there's a big difference between the two.
First of all, there is never a "proper" or "correct" way to speak any language. There are only standard ways to speak a language. Languages are constantly evolving, dying, and emerging (but less so in the last 100 years because peoples are less isolated).
Second, ebonics is really a bad term. The correct term is Black English (also called African-American Vernacular English). Black English is a designated dialect (along with Appalachian English and Chicano English among others).
Instead of saying "proper" or "correct" English, here in the U.S. it should be correctly called Standard American English (and yes there's Standard British English, Standard Australian English, etc.). Remember, there's no proper or correct way to speak a language, only a standard set within a state, nation, or other governing body.
Important points...
*Ebonics was a trendy term that unfortunately lead to ridicule, misinformation, etc.
*Yes, dialects should be cherished/nurtured, but it is important for everyone in a state, nation, or other governing body to learn and speak the standard form of the official (or unofficial) language. *The initial spirit of the Black English (wrongly termed Ebonics) movement in schools was to just acknowledge its existence and therefore give educators better know-how/tools in moving students to learn/speak Standard American English! Kind of like an ESL for Black English speakers. This is very important to know/understand, people.
*While speaking Standard American English should be the goal for all in the U.S., we also need to learn to cherish the many beautiful dialects, sub-dialects, inflections, accents, new world languages,etc. that we have in this country. This includes Black English, Appalachian English, Chicano English, Cajun French, Louisiana Creole French, Geechee/Gullah, The dialect of the Chesapeake Isles, Southern English (which includes various inflections, accents, and some sub-dialects...thank you for speaking up about this gt6974a!), etc.
*coolyfett, you should really be ashamed of the spirit in which you brought up this subject. Must be informed/knowledgeable.
That's it for now, y'all! (Yes, I'm Southern...and I personally think "y'all" should officially be the second person plural pronoun for Standard American English! It would make things so much easier/better! ;-))
Black English?? Oh hell no!!! I am not calling it Black English...I refuse!!! NO NO NO NO, even if its the proper term I'm offended to call it that.
BUT! we do agree that everyone in this country should know Standard American English. In my OP I called it Mainstream American English, but I meant what you said basically, lol the word "Standard" didn't come to mind at the time lol.
"coolyfett, you should really be ashamed of the spirit in which you brought up this subject. Must be informed/knowledgeable".
I just read this line in the quote! I'm misinformed? About what? I'm not ashamed about this topic. I am a black man, and I feel that ghetto talking needs to stop when not around ghetto people. That's all I was trying to say. I think you may be digging a little too deep here sweetie, really. The people that need to be ashamed are this lame ass TROLLS that the MODs won't identify. I am a participant on these forums as are you aries, so you know I am not a TROLL. How did dialect get in this conversation? Now you confused me.
Ok, if you run across a 5 year old who drops the F-bomb, then you have to assume they've been raised in a household where this type of language is common (unfortunately), and you have to just raise your eyebrows and feel sorry for the kid. But I'm not talking about young kids who pick things up and don't yet know any better. Or even younger teen aged kids where you can snap, "Hey, we DON'T talk like that around here!" - I'm talking about adults.
Adults are FULLY aware, regardless of where they were raised, that it is not socially acceptable in "everyday places and mixed groups of adults and kids" to F-this and MF-that. You don't need training to teach you this by the time you're 21 - it's common sense. You don't walk into an open house in a nice neighborhood, or a busy restaurant, etc., and F-MF-F-MF-MF-F that this and the other, with other people around. Period.
Kids and teens, sure, I'll give a warning. Adults - you're gone.
I think you may be giving some ADULTS too much credit, and you know what I think I am guilty of it too. Some adults are really that ignorant! They really don't know how to talk. Its common sense to COMMON PEOPLE like you & I Greg, but not common to them.
Black English?? Oh hell no!!! I am not calling it Black English...I refuse!!! NO NO NO NO, even if its the proper term I'm offended to call it that.
BUT! we do agree that everyone in this country should know Standard American English. In my OP I called it Mainstream American English, but I meant what you said basically, lol the word "Standard" didn't come to mind at the time lol.
"coolyfett, you should really be ashamed of the spirit in which you brought up this subject. Must be informed/knowledgeable".
I just read this line in the quote! I'm misinformed? About what? I'm not ashamed about this topic. I am a black man, and I feel that ghetto talking needs to stop when not around ghetto people. That's all I was trying to say. I think you may be digging a little too deep here sweetie, really. The people that need to be ashamed are this lame ass TROLLS that the MODs won't identify. I am a participant on these forums as are you aries, so you know I am not a TROLL. How did dialect get in this conversation? Now you confused me.
Just so that you know, Black English/African-American Vernacular English and Standard American English are offical terms/concepts.
I'm really not in the business of just making stuff up!
The evolution, constant change, and "interconnectedness" of languages/dialects is a fascinating subject. I really recommemnd looking in to it/studying it some...I think you'll like it.
Here is a link below relating to the topic of this thread that you (and others) might be interested in. It's a start:
GT you probably speak the same way to everyone you talk to right, no changing of the speech right?
Actually, according to my wife, there are two times when my accent is more prominent. It's when I'm with other Southeners w/accents and when I'm drinking.
Just so that you know, Black English/African-American Vernacular English and Standard American English are offical terms/concepts.
I'm really not in the business of just making stuff up!
The evolution, constant change, and "interconnectedness" of languages/dialects is a fascinating subject. I really recommemnd looking in to it/studying it some...I think you'll like it.
Here is a link below relating to the topic of this thread that you (and others) might be interested in. It's a start:
The assumption is being made that no one here HAS studied languages and dialects. Thank you for the reference, but you are far underestimating us common folk. Who cares if you have quoted "official terms and concepts"? They still may be offensive to some people...but, being so intelligent and knowledgeable, you would know this. I'm not just making stuff up.
A book for you to read: Proper English: Myths and Misunderstandings about Language...it seems that "proper English" is an official term/concept as well, as are "correct English" and "formal English". Look them up.
By the way - your TIME article on "Black English" IS FROM 1972! No wonder it is titled the way it is...the Civil Rights Act had only been passed 8 years earlier...
Last edited by DeaconJ; 11-07-2008 at 04:09 PM..
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