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Atlanta actually didn't lose very many buildings with any architectural significance during the 1960s. Most of what was demolished came in the way of older neighborhoods and abandoned warehouses, not what anyone would consider "older architecture". Much of Atlanta's 1900s downtown is still intact, and the city itself has a long history of historic preservation.
I can see a parallel between the two cities in the respect that they were both decimated during a war, but the fact that one war occured 100 years before the other is a very significant piece of the puzzle. There wasn't much in Atlanta in the 1860s.
Prior to it's destructive war period in 1940, Bucharest had a population of 650,000 and looked like this:
Atlanta, prior to it's destructive war period in 1864, had a poulation of 10,000 and looked like this:
Even if there wasn't much to pre-war Atlanta compared to pre-war Bucharest. That said, Atlanta used to have more historic buildings than it does now. Terminal Station was torn down in 1970. Union Station was torn down in 1972. Atlanta did not retain most of its Old South architecture in an attempt to be part of the New South. Many of Bucharest's old buildings were torn down under Ceausescu in the name of communism.
If you look at Atlanta, and then look at Savannah New Orleans, and Charleston, the city of Atlanta doesn't seem to have as much "old" charm as the aforementioned cities.
NO.This is simply NOT true.You cannot be further from the truth.Any drive through each state as I have done and you can tell a major difference how far North Carolina is from catching up to Georgia in a lot of areas.
I'd say the opposite. The wealth and hence, population, is spread out much more evenly in NC and one can easily see that when driving through the state. But in GA, once you leave Atlanta, things drop off rather dramatically and the contrast is pretty stark.
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Savannah is a MAJOR U.S. port.You cannot demiss it any more than you N.O.'s,houstons,or any othe major city port.Not to mention the amount of money the state of Georgia has invested in th last 15 years to make it wider and bigger and still more plans to do so.It came from a very basic port to the big leauges to where now it is the fastest growing in America.
Savannah's port definitely gives Georgia an advantage over NC; that much is certainly true.
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And as far as infrastructure goes,it cant be any clearer how far North Carolina is behind.
Those statistics are from half a decade ago. And I'll say that if NC is still currently behind, it's because the state has several fast-growing metros to tend to, so infrastructure will naturally lag a bit. It's not an excuse, but just an explanation.
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So NO i don't think N.C. does any more for the rest of its state than GA.
Again, I strongly disagree, and here's why. Atlanta is what it is today primarily due to local leadership. On the other hand, NC's two largest metro areas, Charlotte and the Triangle, are what they are today primarily due to the state setting the stage for growth and prosperity. Early on, NC liberalized its banking laws which gave business leaders the impetus to grow the banking industry in NC, of which both Charlotte and Winston-Salem have been the main beneficiaries--even at the expense of Georgia in some cases. Also, RTP was the brainchild of state leaders and is a major jobs engine for the Triangle and the state of NC. Because of RTP's success, the state has created the NC Research Parks Network in order to brand and locate technology resources in the several research parks that exist across the state. And then you also have our state-sponsored intercity passenger rail service via Amtrak (the Piedmont) that offers twice daily service from Charlotte to Raleigh. Georgia has plans for its own intercity passenger rail network, but currently they seem to be stalled. NC has even sunk a significant amount of money into a large industrial park in rural eastern NC in something of an effort to replicate RTP's success in an otherwise economically depressed area, something that's not been without criticism since it's taken some time to see tangible results of that investment.
I'm not saying that any of these things necessarily make NC a better state than Georgia since that is highly subjective, but anyone who's looking at this without bias can clearly see that NC has more coordination among its cities and metropolitan areas than Georgia has and that it does more to spread the wealth among its metropolitan areas.
If you look at Atlanta, and then look at Savannah New Orleans, and Charleston, the city of Atlanta doesn't seem to have as much "old" charm as the aforementioned cities.
That's largely because Savannah, New Orleans, and Charleston--like their Northern and Midwestern counterparts Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, etc.--came of age when trade was done largely via waterways.
That's largely because Savannah, New Orleans, and Charleston--like their Northern and Midwestern counterparts Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, etc.--came of age when trade was done largely via waterways.
You skipped another important part of my last statement. I said that Atlanta chose not to retain much of its Old South architecture in a bid to be part of the New South. Places like Savannah and New Orleans have kept alot of their old architecture.
You skipped another important part of my last statement. I said that Atlanta chose not to retain much of its Old South architecture in a bid to be part of the New South. Places like Savannah and New Orleans have kept alot of their old architecture.
Those cities also had more of that type of architecture in relation to their size than Atlanta did.
Even if there wasn't much to pre-war Atlanta compared to pre-war Bucharest. That said, Atlanta used to have more historic buildings than it does now. Terminal Station was torn down in 1970. Union Station was torn down in 1972. Atlanta did not retain most of its Old South architecture in an attempt to be part of the New South. Many of Bucharest's old buildings were torn down under Ceausescu in the name of communism. If you look at Atlanta, and then look at Savannah New Orleans, and Charleston, the city of Atlanta doesn't seem to have as much "old" charm as the aforementioned cities.
Likely due to the simple fact that those cities predate Atlanta by at least a couple of hundred years. It's really not even a valid comparison.
You are right about the tragic loss of the train stations. Some other notable (and splendid) buildings that came down over the period you cite:
I'd say the opposite. The wealth and hence, population, is spread out much more evenly in NC and one can easily see that when driving through the state. But in GA, once you leave Atlanta, things drop off rather dramatically and the contrast is pretty stark.
Atlanta has almost 30 counties in is MSA.It reaches far in the Mountains to as far as almost Macon.Raleigh and Charlotte together will not cover the entire Atlanta metro area.
I have family all over this state and N.C.I drive frequently.So I don't know what you are seeing.The only stark difference is that you see more rural spaces the father out.Go drive through some of N.C. smaller cities.The roads that surround them or run through them
Savannah's port definitely gives Georgia an advantage over NC; that much is certainly true. Its a HUGE advantage and a unlimited growth potential where Gerogia is adding even more ports .Again its more than 1(ONE) port.And in coorporation with Atlanta air cargo is really helping to see huge numbers in growth. Atlanta Boosts Georgia Ports
Its like you are seeing the technology things that NC has done to grow but as if Georgia ports are some little deal.The fact that Georgia has several tech related projects much like what they are doing in NC,but NC does NOT have any active plans for a port along its coast is IMO apparent.
Those statistics are from half a decade ago. And I'll say that if NC is still currently behind, it's because the state has several fast-growing metros to tend to, so infrastructure will naturally lag a bit. It's not an excuse, but just an explanation.
And 5 years ago is NOT that long ago where there are such major changes that NC would surpass Georgia as that link clearly shows how far behind they are.Dont be so quick to demiss it.
North Carolina has $5.92 billion in wastewater infrastructure needs.
Georgia has $2.34 billion in wastewater infrastructure needs
Driving on roads in need of repair costs Georgia motorists $255 million a year in extra vehicle repairs and operating costs --- $44 per motorist
Driving on roads in need of repair costs North Carolina motorists $1.7 billion a year in extra vehicle repairs and operating costs --- $282 per motorist
This is From a Pew Research Center Survey of the 50 States.It gives a breakdown of different categories for each state and gives a grade in 2008.In EVERY category(including infrastructure)GA is ahead of NC.
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But a tough obstacle has stood in
the way of real accomplishment: the decentralized
structure of North Carolina
state government. The individual agencies
each run their own human resources shop,
and frequently they don’t want to run it the
way the state would like them to. “
Also in 2 subcategories.Infrastructure it got an overall B-rating but under maintenace for infrastructure it got a failing grade.The other failing grade came under Money given poor marks to its budgeting process(a strength that was noted for GA).
GA had NO failing marks in this report!
As a matter of fact,GA out of the entire South(with the exception of TX-tie and VA which gets an A+)Is the highest ranking state.
Again, I strongly disagree, and here's why. Atlanta is what it is today primarily due to local leadership. On the other hand, NC's two largest metro areas, Charlotte and the Triangle, are what they are today primarily due to the state setting the stage for growth and prosperity. Early on, NC liberalized its banking laws which gave business leaders the impetus to grow the banking industry in NC, of which both Charlotte and Winston-Salem have been the main beneficiaries--even at the expense of Georgia in some cases. Also, RTP was the brainchild of state leaders and is a major jobs engine for the Triangle and the state of NC. Because of RTP's success, the state has created the NC Research Parks Network in order to brand and locate technology resources in the several research parks that exist across the state. And then you also have our state-sponsored intercity passenger rail service via Amtrak (the Piedmont) that offers twice daily service from Charlotte to Raleigh. Georgia has plans for its own intercity passenger rail network, but currently they seem to be stalled. NC has even sunk a significant amount of money into a large industrial park in rural eastern NC in something of an effort to replicate RTP's success in an otherwise economically depressed area, something that's not been without criticism since it's taken some time to see tangible results of that investment.
I'm not saying that any of these things necessarily make NC a better state than Georgia since that is highly subjective, but anyone who's looking at this without bias can clearly see that NC has more coordination among its cities and metropolitan areas than Georgia has and that it does more to spread the wealth among its metropolitan areas.
Those were smart things to do.Again everything that NC is doing they have started or in different stages of planning.
Georgia does more (significantly more)in International trade/imports .
Georgia No. 3 in investments from China
Gerogia Tech is very well known throughout the Asian world
Some things we take for granted like the Airport.Airport is a key ingredient to why even Charlotte,Raleigh,Birmingham or any other major city in the South had another leg to stand on in the first place.
Hartsfield-Jackson Airport:
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It was a busy airport from its inception and by the end of 1930 it placed third behind New York City and Chicago for regular daily flights with sixteen arriving and departing.[8] Candler Field's first control tower was opened March 1939
.
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In 1957, Atlanta had its first jet flight: a Sud Aviation Caravelle from Washington D.C. That same year, work on a new terminal began to help alleviate congestion. Atlanta was the busiest airport in the country with more than two million passengers passing through that year and, between noon and 2 p.m. each day, it became the busiest airport in the world
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With a payroll of $2.4 billion, the airport has a direct and indirect economic impact of $3.2 billion on the local and regional economy and a total annual, regional economic impact of more than $19.8 billion
Other reason that lead to the creation of such an idea like the airport is progressive politics.Jimmy Carter,Carl Sanders and Ernest Vandiver.North Carolina is known to be "progressive" for theSouthbut so is Georgia.Business do not flock to state like Mississippi or Arkansas.
For some reason people want to fault Georgia for having Atlanta as the only real major city.But for what its worth those cityies might be considerably smaller than those in North Carolina but with Atlanta being such a behemoth the other cities are stll holding there own.
Columbus has several F-1000 companies headquartered there like TYSYS,SYNOVUS, AFLAC,Carmike Cinemas
It's kind of hard to respond to your post when you post your responses inside the quote tags where my response is located. Just something to think about for future reference.
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Originally Posted by afonega1
Atlanta has almost 30 counties in is MSA.It reaches far in the Mountains to as far as almost Macon.Raleigh and Charlotte together will not cover the entire Atlanta metro area.
I have family all over this state and N.C.I drive frequently.So I don't know what you are seeing.The only stark difference is that you see more rural spaces the father out.Go drive through some of N.C. smaller cities.The roads that surround them or run through them
NC has three metro regions over 1 million people spaced somewhat evenly throughout the central part of the state, and smaller metro areas towards the ends. After Atlanta, the next largest metro area in Georgia is ten times smaller. That is a dramatic difference. Driving along I-85 in Georgia, all you've got is metro Atlanta. Driving through I-85 in NC, you've got Charlotte, Greensboro, and Durham. Driving along I-20 in Georgia, you've got Augusta and Atlanta. Driving along I-40 in NC, you've got Wilmington, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and Asheville. Yes there is a lot of rural expanses along those interstates in both states, but you drive through more urban areas in NC than in Georgia. I don't even see how that can be debated. The contrast is evident when looking at these two maps:
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Its a HUGE advantage and a unlimited growth potential where Gerogia is adding even more ports .Again its more than 1(ONE) port.And in coorporation with Atlanta air cargo is really helping to see huge numbers in growth. Atlanta Boosts Georgia Ports
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Its like you are seeing the technology things that NC has done to grow but as if Georgia ports are some little deal.The fact that Georgia has several tech related projects much like what they are doing in NC,but NC does NOT have any active plans for a port along its coast is IMO apparent.
I'm not saying it's "some little deal," but the fact is that most coastal states have ports that help to drive growth in some way and every coastal state is investing in those ports (even NC, as relatively small as they are). That's pretty much a given.
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And 5 years ago is NOT that long ago where there are such major changes that NC would surpass Georgia as that link clearly shows how far behind they are.Dont be so quick to demiss it.
I'm not saying that Georgia would have slipped behind NC in five years, but it would help to see up-to-date statistics. NC could actually be closing that gap.
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Those were smart things to do.Again everything that NC is doing they have started or in different stages of planning.
NC started liberalizing its banking laws as early as the 1930's and RTP was conceived in the 1950's. The things I listed are things that NC has been doing for a while now.
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Georgia does more (significantly more)in International trade/imports .
Georgia No. 3 in investments from China
Gerogia Tech is very well known throughout the Asian world
Again, that's all largely due to Atlanta which is primarily where it is today as a city because of progressive local leadership.
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Some things we take for granted like the Airport.Airport is a key ingredient to why even Charlotte,Raleigh,Birmingham or any other major city in the South had another leg to stand on in the first place.
Hartsfield-Jackson Airport:
Other reason that lead to the creation of such an idea like the airport is progressive politics.Jimmy Carter,Carl Sanders and Ernest Vandiver.North Carolina is known to be "progressive" for theSouthbut so is Georgia.Business do not flock to state like Mississippi or Arkansas.
Again, the airport was primarily the vision of local leaders--as is just about every other airport out there. Of course state leaders were involved in its growth and development, but it was mostly the brainchild of local leaders.
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For some reason people want to fault Georgia for having Atlanta as the only real major city.But for what its worth those cityies might be considerably smaller than those in North Carolina but with Atlanta being such a behemoth the other cities are stll holding there own.
I'm not faulting Georgia for having Atlanta as its only real major city. I'm just saying that the policies of North Carolina have helped to spread the wealth around the state in a way that Georgia's hasn't.
Last edited by Poseidon704; 09-26-2010 at 07:10 PM..
It's kind of hard to respond to your post when you post your responses inside the quote tags where my response is located. Just something to think about for future reference.
NC has three metro regions over 1 million people spaced somewhat evenly throughout the central part of the state, and smaller metro areas towards the ends. After Atlanta, the next largest metro area in Georgia is ten times smaller. That is a dramatic difference. Driving along I-85 in Georgia, all you've got is metro Atlanta. Driving through I-85 in NC, you've got Charlotte, Greensboro, and Durham. Driving along I-20 in Georgia, you've got Augusta and Atlanta. Driving along I-40 in NC, you've got Wilmington, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and Asheville. Yes there is a lot of rural expanses along those interstates in both states, but you drive through more urban areas in NC than in Georgia. I don't even see how that can be debated. The contrast is evident when looking at these two maps:
I'm not saying it's "some little deal," but the fact is that most coastal states have ports that help to drive growth in some way and every coastal state is investing in those ports (even NC, as relatively small as they are). That's pretty much a given.
I'm not saying that Georgia would have slipped behind NC in five years, but it would help to see up-to-date statistics. NC could actually be closing that gap.
NC started liberalizing its banking laws as early as the 1930's and RTP was conceived in the 1950's. The things I listed are things that NC has been doing for a while now.
Again, that's all largely due to Atlanta which is primarily where it is today as a city because of progressive local leadership.
Again, the airport was primarily the vision of local leaders--as is just about every other airport out there. Of course state leaders were involved in its growth and development, but it was mostly the brainchild of local leaders.
I'm not faulting Georgia for having Atlanta as its only real major city. I'm just saying that the policies of North Carolina have helped to spread the wealth around the state in a way that Georgia's hasn't.
Sorry.I cant remember how to use the multiple quote function.
Of course 'Im NOT saying that North Carolina top major cities are NOT overall bigger.What I a was responding to is i am basically saying that that is NOT by some "grand design" which somehow make the state in better shape overall.Every study I can find has Georgia as the leader in the Southeast after Virginia.Even in these times.Infrastructure,Economy,Government,Education etc Georgia ranks higher or they are so close its does not matter.
140 cities and towns in the 28-county Metropolitan Statistical Area in mid-2005.[5] Four cities – Johns Creek (2006), Milton (2006), Chattahoochee Hills (2007), and Dunwoody (2008) – have incorporated since then, following the lead of Sandy Springs in 2005.
wiki
Out of those counties 4 of them have populations over 500,000.
13 have population over 100,000(again this is only in the metro area)
N.C. has 20 counties with a population over 100,000
Of those,only 2 have populations over 500,000
The economy of Atlanta is bigger than Charlotte,Raleigh,Durham,Cary,Winston -Salem COMBINED.
So yes it while all that growth is tied to one central city of Atlanta.The expanse of the area is very much separate.
Not to mention Raleigh-Durham benefits due to the fact that Durham is close to Raleigh which happens to be the capitol of the state.
The median income in Georgia is $50,861 (23rd) vs N.C.@ $44,670[3] (38th).Thats a $5000 difference!
Again thats the average for 140 town and 28 counties
Even after you leave the metro area,several cities metro areas like Athens,Macon,Columbus and Chattanooga actually touch or with one county of touching.These are not cities the size of Charlotte or Raleigh,but they are very close to what Greensboro and Winston-Salem are.
They all have their own industry.Like Dalton:"The Carpet Capital of the World".
Tourism and its Ports in Savannah.Not too mention Georgia is heavily military.Those cities that do have one has a base of at least 10,0000 workers.
Charlotte also is notoriously on the bottom for tourism travel.I tried in vain to find concrete numbers on Charlotte tourism and convention numbers.It was very spare or none existent.All I could find was in refrence to international travel to the U.S. from overseas visitors.Atlanta and Georgia rank WAY above Charlotte.International buisness and travel is also growing faster in Georgia.Savannah has more visitors than any of North Carolina's cities if I had to guess.
While everyone knows that North Carolina does well overall due to its coast in Tourism,its cities are very poor i that major department.
Other cities may have ports but how many have grown and invested as much as Georgia has to where it is today and doubling almost every year?
As to how well the state is run including infrastructure,I gave you an updated version from a new study taken in 2008 and North Carolina is STILL behind in almost every category or at best a tie.
If you drive through Fayetteville,Greenville,Durham or even near Raleigh the roads and bridges even look old ,as well as fill unkempt in many places.Not terrible but a definately noticeable difference between the 2 states.
NC has three metro regions over 1 million people spaced somewhat evenly throughout the central part of the state, and smaller metro areas towards the ends. After Atlanta, the next largest metro area in Georgia is ten times smaller. That is a dramatic difference. Driving along I-85 in Georgia, all you've got is metro Atlanta. Driving through I-85 in NC, you've got Charlotte, Greensboro, and Durham. Driving along I-20 in Georgia, you've got Augusta and Atlanta. Driving along I-40 in NC, you've got Wilmington, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and Asheville. Yes there is a lot of rural expanses along those interstates in both states, but you drive through more urban areas in NC than in Georgia. I don't even see how that can be debated. The contrast is evident when looking at these two maps:
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I'm not faulting Georgia for having Atlanta as its only real major city. I'm just saying that the policies of North Carolina have helped to spread the wealth around the state in a way that Georgia's hasn't.
The Area in NC which you speak is all on the piedmont and it's not much larger then Atlanta. OK along I-95 in Miami is a longer development than in any direction from Chicago but at the same time Miami MSA doesn't become more than 6 milies thick.
CSA Counties over 100,000
Atlanta has16
Charlotte has 8
The triad has 6
The triangle has 4
NC piedmont crescent has 18 counties over 100,000. 16 and 18 counties are comparable, the piedmont crescent only has 2 more counties over 100,000 than Metro Atlanta. the map you show dosen't represent exurbs Atlanta is not just more populated but a larger identified region itself, it's not in a line like the piedmont crescent but in all directions. Atlanta has a alot larger and expressive exurban ring than any metro in NC again which that map doesn't represent exurbs well. In area sense you can not directly compare one NC metro area size to Atlanta and say they equal as urban area, Metro Atlanta alone is like equivalent to 2.5 NC metro areas size. Understand this Atlanta CSA is over 10,000 sq mi Charlotte CSA is less than 5,000 sq mi.
Also Metro Atlanta CSA abuts meaning touches Macon, Athens, Columbus CSA in which I didn’t include county count. Augusta doesn’t border Atlanta but considering that Georgia piedmont region has Metro Atlanta, the Athens area, and Columbus and Macon CSA on the fault line. It’s about just as development as North Carolina Piedmont region. I if added Athens clake county which border "Barrow County metro Atlanta" it would another 100,000 which is purely on the piedmont.
You said "After Atlanta, the next largest metro area in Georgia is ten times smaller." What you fell to realize since Atlanta is alot larger in area and sprawl wise it's like saying After NC's whole piedmont crescent region. The reason it may feel different than NC is because your driving though suburbia extensively in most of Georgia piedmont region. As oppose to driving though 3 different cohesively medium size metro in the same area. NC has more medium metro areas I give it that but more development though the state is something different. And Oh yeah Georgia state gov has this weird culture of not liking metro Atlanta, so your last statement can't be right either.
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The fact that Georgia has several tech related projects much like what they are doing in NC,but NC does NOT have any active plans for a port along its coast is IMO apparent.
