Why does America hate Mike Vick? (Jackson: transporting, homes, buying)

[Merin]

Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb

Correction: Some in the thug-loving, gangsta, hip-hop, gang-banger community may well embrace dog-fighting. I know it's hard for many to believe, and these people work overtime to make people think they are one in the same, but they ARE NOT synonymous. These people have nothing to do with African-American culture. They're a criminal class, predatory class, plain and simple.

Thank you. I grew up in a predominantly African American neighborhood, and this stuff NEVER took place. I didn't know anyone who enjoyed torturing animals.

[RoslynHolcomb]

Originally Posted by Merin

Thank you. I grew up in a predominantly African American neighborhood, and this stuff NEVER took place. I didn't know anyone who enjoyed torturing animals.

No problem. It's like my number one pet peeve. No one would look at Bernie Madoff and say, "Some in the Jewish community enjoy robbing people of their life savings." They wouldn't look at Jeffrey Dahmer and say "Some in the White community enjoy eating people." Yet somehow any deviance committed by someone with black skin is assigned to the whole community. Sorry, not on my watch.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Mishap

People have been using animals inherent ability to kill each other for sport since the beginning of time. Ever wonder why breeds like bulldogs and pit bulls exist? They were raised for sport meaning attacking bulls and bears for public spectacle. Sure you can say its sick but only in the past 200 years have people really started considering the well being of dogs and other animals. All those people weren't sick...to call them such is to ignore that we as a culture dictate what is normal and in many areas (especially the south) using pit bulls for fighting hasn't become culturally unacceptable even though it is illegal. Fox hunting was only banned in 2004 in the UK and it basically involves having a pack of dogs tear apart a fox. It shouldn't be a cultural norm in modern society but that doesn't mean some people don't cling to it and they aren't necessarily psychologically sick.

So because for many years people tolerated and allowed cruelty to animals, that makes it OK? People have been beating their wives and kids for thousands of years too. Does that mean it's OK?

I don't care that "everyone's doing it" or that some cultures thought it was OK to allow it previously. The Romans used to let lions eat men...so what?

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb

No problem. It's like my number one pet peeve. No one would look at Bernie Madoff and say, "Some in the Jewish community enjoy robbing people of their life savings." They wouldn't look at Jeffrey Dahmer and say "Some in the White community enjoy eating people." Yet somehow any deviance committed by someone with black skin is assigned to the whole community. Sorry, not on my watch.

Wow you two are a bit overly sensitive...I'll remember to qualify anything so minutely to make sure I do not offend you again. Please note I made mention of only you two and not the African American community as a whole b/c like you said you are not a homogenous group w/ a single mindset.

Michael Vick is not the only African American to be associated with dog fighting. When a popular Jewish recording artist starts glorifying Madoff or country music starts talking about eating neighbors, then your comparison is a bit more apt. I said some. I didn't say many or a lot. I mentioned it simply to say the case was not about race and you feel the need to tear my words apart as some hidden agenda to associate African Americans w/ dog fighting. Maybe there's something about black NFL stars and dog fighting but feel free to look up the names listed in this USA Today article before Vick got arrested:

Officials: No solid Vick evidence, but problem persists - USATODAY.com

It names:
LeShon Johnson
Nate Newton
Tyrone Wheatley

...and Clinton Portis said there was nothing unusual about dog fighting throughout the south.

So now USA Today has named 3 African American NFL players outside Vick associated with dog fighting. They didn't come from the same school, neighborhood, or college. Please feel free to name 3 Jewish Ponzi schemers in the NFL or anywhere for that matter.

Please note I wasn't associating dog fighting w/ African Americans and I've focused on the simple fact that was the only tie of the Vick case to African Americans at all.

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by neil0311

So because for many years people tolerated and allowed cruelty to animals, that makes it OK? People have been beating their wives and kids for thousands of years too. Does that mean it's OK?

I don't care that "everyone's doing it" or that some cultures thought it was OK to allow it previously. The Romans used to let lions eat men...so what?

Didn't say cruelty to animals was ok. I'm saying that the cultural norm that animals should be treated well is relatively new and that even highly developed nations (like Spain/Portugal) still routinely torture animals for sport.

What Vick did while inhumane and despicable is not considered culturally offensive in many areas in the world and while the US and most of Europe is trying to escape this, he shouldn't be punished unduly beyond what the courts have assigned simply b/c people love their dogs. If he has any value as a player left and makes amends to PETA, Humane Society et al, why shouldn't his fate be left to the NFL and the fans?

[RoslynHolcomb]

Isn't it interesting that four NFLers are involved in dogfighting and the tie that comes to your mind is the fact that they're African American? Seems to me that the logical tie is that many in the NFL are into dog-fighting. You do realize there are 32 MILLION African Americans in this country?

[hokiehigh]

I am a huge animal love and also a Hokie so this was a weird situation. He did a bad thing and he paid the price, now he should have the opportunity to right his wrongs. I really hope he gets it together. From what I know of him, he is a pretty shy/resevered guy. I think he hung out with the wrong crowd and had a lot of "users" controlling his life.

I don't know if he will be back in the NFL but I would like to see him succeed in whatever he decides to do.

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb

Isn't it interesting that four NFLers are involved in dogfighting and the tie that comes to your mind is the fact that they're African American? Seems to me that the logical tie is that many in the NFL are into dog-fighting. You do realize there are 32 MILLION African Americans in this country?

So then the next logical step would be to ban the NFL b/c they promote dog fighting.

I said the word some and African American and you basically say I'm tying the entirety of African American culture with dog fighting. I mentioned the 4 players simply to highlight that yes there are some African Americans who fight dogs. I simply proved my statement b/c 4 qualifies as some and these 4 men are not related, never played on the same team, or grew up in the same area still involve themselves with dog fighting. The # of NFL players out there is still far less than the # of people involved in dogfighting so you can't exactly say it's a problem solely for the NFL. I did not assign some % of the population, or make outright derogatory comments regarding the problem. Dogfighting isn't a Black America problem...it's one that's often aligned with illegal gambling, drugs, and gangs and it a problem for everyone. I'm sorry I've offended you but my intention was not to be offensive.

I'm not trying to say that African Americans are the only ones dog fighting. My initial statement only mentioned that as a very minimal tangential connection to Vick's race and the it not being the reasoning behind his continued ostracization despite having served time for his crimes. I'm pretty sure all races have taken part in dog fighting by now but in recent history it is popular rap music(which some African Americans take part in) that has brought it into the mainstream again. It likely isn't a common sport (raising that many pitbulls gets expensive) and hopefully one that will fade quickly.

My initial intention was that his return to the NFL is not about race but apparently that fell on deaf ears.

[RoslynHolcomb]

Mishap, the point is, that regardless of how many African Americans may or may not be involved in dogfighting, when you say some in the African American community support it you are in fact associating it with the African American community. And that's simply wrong. It's wrong to associate a deviant behavior with an ethnic group, based purely on anecdotal evidence. You got four guys. What is the primary relationship between them? I'd say it was the fact that they're football players. None of the guys mentioned are outside of the NFL, yet somehow you managed to associate this deviant criminal behavior with their ethnicity when clearly it has nothing to do with their behavior.

How many NFLers are there? How many are African American, and then how many of that number are dogfighters? It seems beyond comprehension that you would take that tiny minority and then extrapolate their behavior to 'some of the African American community.'

Yes, it's offensive. I daresay any group would find such offensive. And don't even get me started on your 'overly sensitive' remark. That's so privileged it's wearing a sheet.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Mishap

Didn't say cruelty to animals was ok. I'm saying that the cultural norm that animals should be treated well is relatively new and that even highly developed nations (like Spain/Portugal) still routinely torture animals for sport.

I just don't get what this has to do with anything. There have been cultural norms that existed for many years with regard to many things. Norms such as slavery, segregation, arranged marriages, etc. existed for many years.

Does that make them OK? So Spain allows bull fighting? Again with the "everyone is doing it, so it must be OK." I fail to see your point.