Southside areas: Racially mixed or in transition? (Atlanta, Smyrna: section 8, rent)

[Tdiddy0027]

Are southside areas such as Henry county, Rockdale County and South Fulton going to stay racially mixed or are they on the way to becoming all black- like Clayton county and south dekalb. I believe that areas like Henry county will always be desirable whether it becomes all black or mixed, but it's still something I'd like to know. Any theories?

[aries4118]

Well, look at Greater Stone Mountain (Stone Mountain proper, Redan, Bermuda, Hidden Hills area, Rockbridge area, etc.)...a desirable/beautiful area that has become virtually all black.

I think Henry County has the potential to be like DeKalb in that parts will become mostly black and others may stay mostly white.


Remember the usual case, once an area goes over 20-30% minority/black (maybe even 40%), the whites will start flying out of there...and the area will go from racially-mixed to virtually all-minority/black.


But, what do I hope??? I hope that Henry County, Rockdale County, Newton County, North Fayette County, and Douglas County are the start of a new trend in Metro Atlanta...areas that become racially-mixed...and stay that way!

[Sweet Atlanta Peach]

I can say that in the areas of Fairburn (Cedar Grove) and the built-up Camp Creek Area, as well as areas of Sandtown and Cascade (all of these in South Fulton) are becoming very diverse. They were once majority black.

There are pockets of South Fulton that are diverse, such as historic College Park, areas of Hapeville, and East Point that were also majority black. I guess it depends on where you go, but there are areas in Clayton County that are diverse, such as the Lovejoy/Hampton area and even areas of Jonesboro (south Clayton towards Henry). Clayton County is not all-black.

Some areas in South DeKalb (such as near the Henry County border line) are diverse as well. I guess with those counties, you have your majority black areas, but I don't think that whites will totally flee a county and that county will become "all-black."

[Brighteyes33]

I'm not real sure but I do know that whites, mostly southern whites do not like to live in areas heavily populated by minorities. I'm black and I still remember when Stone Mountain was primarily white. Just like the above poster said, it's now all black. Northern whites tend to not be as bothered with living with lots of minorities as southern whites are. I remember attended a church that was racially mixed with a white pastor. He once argued that southern whites tended to be very closed minded. He asked all the whites in the church to stand, then he told all the whites who came from up north to sit down. 90% sat down. I was really shocked. He said southern whites were not as receptive to being along side minorities in lots of situations. I believe it because as neighborhoods and areas get darker, whites move out and move up to North Georgia. The further north you go, the more white it gets and the more red-neckish it becomes. On that same note, even though I'm black, I don't particularly like living in black areas. I notice that when areas become primarily black, crime does increase and this makes me nervous. I'm not sure about the actual explanation of this. I'm not sure if it's one of those "one bad seed messes up everything" kinda deal or what. Even Lithonia with its sizable black middle class has an unusual amount of crime. Sure, no area is fool proof but there are trends that are noticeable!

[David1502]

For the most part, the schools and the number of white households where schools are not an issue (either no kids or the family is wealthy and chooses private schools) will determine if the area stays racially diverse. In Henry County, it appears that there are few families using private schools, so if the schools become majority black, it is almost assured that those white families with kids will leave the county.

You bring up College Park, and Hapeville - those have a different dynamic going for them - they are now being considered as "hip intown communities" with older home architecture. Most of the whites buying there are not using the Fulton County Schools (or at least not yet.) These buyers would like to live in VA Highlands but are finding a more affordable option on the Southside. Henry, on the other hand is not considered intown, but suburban and therefore the whites who are buying in College Park are not potential buyers for McDonough.

Another contrast is the Smyrna area. Even though the public schools are often 70%+ minority, the whites are not fleeing - in fact many of the new homes being built there are often in the $500K range, but many of the families are sending their kids to Westminster, Lovett or other private schools which are just 4 to 5 miles away (and Smynings is a whole lot cheaper than Buckhead and real Vinings!!). It will be interesting to see if many of the younger white couples who have moved to areas like College Park and Smyrna will enroll their kids in the public schools (in the next few years when they have kids) - that will detemine if there really is long term "diversity" in the public schools.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by David1502

For the most part, the schools and the number of white households where schools are not an issue (either no kids or the family is wealthy and chooses private schools) will determine if the area stays racially diverse. In Henry County, it appears that there are few families using private schools, so if the schools become majority black, it is almost assured that those white families with kids will leave the county.

You bring up College Park, and Hapeville - those have a different dynamic going for them - they are now being considered as "hip intown communities" with older home architecture. Most of the whites buying there are not using the Fulton County Schools (or at least not yet.) These buyers would like to live in VA Highlands but are finding a more affordable option on the Southside. Henry, on the other hand is not considered intown, but suburban and therefore the whites who are buying in College Park are not potential buyers for McDonough.

Another contrast is the Smyrna area. Even though the public schools are often 70%+ minority, the whites are not fleeing - in fact many of the new homes being built there are often in the $500K range, but many of the families are sending their kids to Westminster, Lovett or other private schools which are just 4 to 5 miles away (and Smynings is a whole lot cheaper than Buckhead and real Vinings!!). It will be interesting to see if many of the younger white couples who have moved to areas like College Park and Smyrna will enroll their kids in the public schools (in the next few years when they have kids) - that will detemine if there really is long term "diversity" in the public schools.

You know your stuff...

[DuchessOfKvetch]

Originally Posted by Brighteyes33

I'm not real sure but I do know that whites, mostly southern whites do not like to live in areas heavily populated by minorities. I'm black and I still remember when Stone Mountain was primarily white. Just like the above poster said, it's now all black. Northern whites tend to not be as bothered with living with lots of minorities as southern whites are. I remember attended a church that was racially mixed with a white pastor. He once argued that southern whites tended to be very closed minded. He asked all the whites in the church to stand, then he told all the whites who came from up north to sit down. 90% sat down. I was really shocked. He said southern whites were not as receptive to being along side minorities in lots of situations. I believe it because as neighborhoods and areas get darker, whites move out and move up to North Georgia. The further north you go, the more white it gets and the more red-neckish it becomes. On that same note, even though I'm black, I don't particularly like living in black areas. I notice that when areas become primarily black, crime does increase and this makes me nervous. I'm not sure about the actual explanation of this. I'm not sure if it's one of those "one bad seed messes up everything" kinda deal or what. Even Lithonia with its sizable black middle class has an unusual amount of crime. Sure, no area is fool proof but there are trends that are noticeable!

I think caucasians definitely feel more comfortable with "statistical" averages of diversity - that is, assuming a city like Atlanta has an african american population of 20-30%, and has a similar ratio in the workplace, it's what most city folks grew up with. White people may start to feel 'outnumbered' in a majority-black neighborhood because the 'normal' ratio they are used to is reversed. I'm not sure what the "tipping point" is for the average caucasian, but it assuredly has a lot to do with where they grew up and how homogenized their surroundings were.

There may be less latent racism at play and more social awkwardness than is realized.

However, it's nice to see that there's some other caucasians out there who don't -want- to be surrounded all damn day by other white people. >_> When I moved to Atlanta, it was one of the issues that concerned me a lot; I feared getting into arguments with the stereotypical Georgia bigots. At least within the ITP residency, I've been pleasantly surprised to find a lot of tolerance.

[masonbarge]

I read an interesting study recently. A researcher did a computer model of neighborhoods using blue families and red families. The study started with houses arranged like checkerboards, only with spaces for streets.

The families were mixed together randomly and started at 50-50 red and blue. He then started assigning "rules" to the families about their preferences for red or blue neighbors and allowed the families to move where they wanted.

The rather startling result that I remember was when every family was assigned the rule that they wanted at least one of their "next door neighbors" -- that is, the families to the left, right, behind, and across the street -- to be the same color. In other words, a red family could have blue neighbors to the left, right, and behind, for example, as long as the one across the street was red. As long as one neighbor was the same color, there was no preference for the other three neighbors.

After 30 moves, the entire community was totally segregated by color! There was a solid red group at the top, a solid blue center, and a small red group in the left lower corner.

He then changed it so that the only rule was that one of the eight abutting neighbors needed to be the same color, i.e. front, back, sides, and four corners. The same thing happened, although it took a few more moves.

So -- you don't have to have a condition of virulent racism, or for that matter much racism at all, to segregate a city or county by race. All it takes is a desire to have one neighbor the same race.

His conclusion was: The only way a community can become racially integrated is 1) for the family not to care at all what race the neighbors are, or 2) for the family to have a requirement that some neighbors be a different race.

(I'll look and try to figure out the book where I read this, assuming I still have it. I read quite a few books on statistics and decision-making in real life.)

[DuchessOfKvetch]

That sounds a LOT like what you also see when viewing, say, presidential election result maps, when they're organized by Democrat/Republican in blue vs red respectively. Of course while political affiliation is perfectly voluntary, people do 'vote with their feet' by moving to areas to be near others of a similar mindset. If you translate 'race' into 'cultural mindset' then you have the same natural desire most people have towards forming cliques - for better or worse.

[Reelist in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Well, look at Greater Stone Mountain (Stone Mountain proper, Redan, Bermuda, Hidden Hills area, Rockbridge area, etc.)...a desirable/beautiful area that has become virtually all black.

I think Henry County has the potential to be like DeKalb in that parts will become mostly black and others may stay mostly white.


Remember the usual case, once an area goes over 20-30% minority/black (maybe even 40%), the whites will start flying out of there...and the area will go from racially-mixed to virtually all-minority/black.


But, what do I hope??? I hope that Henry County, Rockdale County, Newton County, North Fayette County, and Douglas County are the start of a new trend in Metro Atlanta...areas that become racially-mixed...and stay that way!

I don't think whites would move out of an area just because it became 20%-30% black. I think they may move out if the culture changes in ways that make them uncomfortable. For example, I had a black guy rent a condo right next to mine a couple of years ago. Our complex is mostly white. I came home from work one day and saw him sitting on the steps leading to his second floor condo. He had a boom box sitting in the window pointed outward playing rap music. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this but its certainly not what I'm used to and I didn't really care for it. Neither did my neighbors. Someone spoke to him and he stopped.

With the demise of 'affordable' housing in Atlanta and section 8, we see many less well to do blacks moving into the suburbs. With them may well come a culture of drugs, violence, vandalism and litter. This would, and has, caused many whites to flee an area and along with them many businesses.

I would not move out if my complex became 50% black doctors, lawyers and other professionals. Of course there are a lot of folks between poor and professional. I guess its sort of a bell curve. I'd have to see the culture change before I'd consider moving.