Segregation (Atlanta, Duluth, Buford: high school, college, subdivision)

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by equinox63

I understand your points... However, I'd just like to know (from other white city-data patrons) what would keep you from moving to South Dekalb other than the schools.


With that said, what would keep a white family from moving to South Dekalb other than the schools and the location of their jobs? If there are white south dekalb residents on city-data (outside of Decatur city) what is your opinion of your South Dekalb community? Why did you move there? What are the pros and cons, etc.?

"Other than schools and location"? You're talking about two of the largest factors in the equation of where to buy, so the question makes no sense. If the schools were good, the location worked for my job, and I could buy the house I want in the price range I wanted, there's nothing else that would stop me from buying.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by DeaconJ

Wow...I don't even know how to respond to that. Aren't we superior? It's a good thing Henry County is "in the boonies" where people don't really matter. But that's not really an uncommon attitude from someone living on the northside of Atlanta.

There are almost 200,000 Metro Atlantans who do have a "need to go down there" every day - because they live there. The population has doubled since 2000, and those aren't country people moving to Henry County...it's suburbia. It has a border with Dekalb...and isn't any further away from the city than North Fulton County.


Atlanta being influenced by immigration around the world isn't very evident if you don't even include Gwinnett County in the mix...

Oh, and living the city isn't mutually exclusive with being a NASCAR fan. I have met plenty of people who didn't fit the typical fan stereotype...and plenty of them live within the city limits.

It wasn't my intention to leave out Gwinnett, it's very much a part of "Atlanta". It was a mistake on my part.

Nor was I speaking ill of those living the exurbs. They contribute greatly the Atlanta economy and daily life. They are not inferior to me in any way just because I wouldn't live down there in a million years.

What I was speaking about specifically about is the culture of Atlanta. In my mind, if people want to get what it's like to live in Atlanta and what it's peoples views are, you need to go to the City of Atlanta and all areas ITP plus the immediate suburbs in Fulton, Gwinnett, Cobb, Dekalb, Clayton, and Douglas county (although only it's eastern portions).

If you go to Coweta, Rockdale, Forsyth, Henry, Paulding or any other in the exurbs you will find people who all contribute in some way to life in Atlanta. The point I was making is that the people who live in those areas do so that they can take advantage of Atlanta and it has to offer but not necessarily LIVE in Atlanta.

I mean, you wouldn't go to the middle New Jersey counties to find out what life and culture in New York City is like. Atlanta or any other city is no different in that regard. The areas closer in to the central city will more likely reflect its culture and attitudes than a suburban area 50 miles away.

[marjoriexxx]

Originally Posted by OhioNative

It's not necessarily the whitest place on earth, but it is very segregated, at least in many parts of NE Ohio where I grew up. My high school (graduated in 1988) is still almost 100% white 20 years later, in a very large suburb of Cleveland.

I teach in Mentor, Ohio where you (OhioNative) went to school and lived. I am black. Many people of color now live in Mentor. The high school is not almost 100% white today. People have learned that taxes are much less in Mentor than in many other suburbs. You get more house for the money as well. OhioNative, check the real stats before you write!!

[nb1968]

How about Stone Mountain or Lithonia. I believe there is only 1 student at Redan HS who is NOT black. However IMO, Stone MTN is a really nice peaceful City. Do you think whites will ever discover the low housing costs there and start moving in?

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

It wasn't my intention to leave out Gwinnett, it's very much a part of "Atlanta". It was a mistake on my part.

Nor was I speaking ill of those living the exurbs. They contribute greatly the Atlanta economy and daily life. They are not inferior to me in any way just because I wouldn't live down there in a million years.

What I was speaking about specifically about is the culture of Atlanta. In my mind, if people want to get what it's like to live in Atlanta and what it's peoples views are, you need to go to the City of Atlanta and all areas ITP plus the immediate suburbs in Fulton, Gwinnett, Cobb, Dekalb, Clayton, and Douglas county (although only it's eastern portions).

If you go to Coweta, Rockdale, Forsyth, Henry, Paulding or any other in the exurbs you will find people who all contribute in some way to life in Atlanta. The point I was making is that the people who live in those areas do so that they can take advantage of Atlanta and it has to offer but not necessarily LIVE in Atlanta.

I mean, you wouldn't go to the middle New Jersey counties to find out what life and culture in New York City is like. Atlanta or any other city is no different in that regard. The areas closer in to the central city will more likely reflect its culture and attitudes than a suburban area 50 miles away.

Those are comments that I can support...but your other post sounded nothing like this one. It came across as totally condescending.

I wouldn't live in Henry County either...nor would I live in North Fulton, Gwinnett, Cobb, Douglas, or Clayton Counties. They are all too far out for me. I don't view Henry County any differently, especially with it's proximity to the city being comparable to those listed above.

[StPaulEastSider]

Originally Posted by equinox63

Not trying to be facetious or anything... But for the white city-data forum patrons, if the schools were impeccable, (and distance from your job were not an issue) what would honestly keep you and your family from living in South Dekalb County... Anywhere in South Dekalb... If there is a particular area you'd prefer over another in South Dekalb (outside of Decatur City), please let us know...

Lack of appealing housing stock... bottom line problem for future economic development and thus diversity of any area....

IMHO, ranches and tract houses = not sexy (to borrow terminology from someone upthread... :-)

The size of the lots in the area is also an issue, when I looked at East Point the lot sizes were good, Stn Mtn maybe okay, much of South Dekalb = tiny lots... this is okay for very much Intown lots, but the further OUT one gets, the more LAND one feels entitled to when purchasing a home.

This same lack of appealing housing stock will continue to keep taxes for the schools in this area far below other Atlanta area, especially Northern Fulton County - thus the schools in South DeKalb will continue to suffer, therefore the presumption in this question is inherently false. The schools in South Dekalb will not get better w/o a housing stock to support higher incomes and higher incomes are not going to be attracted to the existing housing stock. Round and round.

Most of these areas seem to me to have the potential to be working or lower class neighborhoods AT BEST going forward 20-30 years and that is never going to produce EXCELLENT schools - black, white or other... really good schools are almost always in UPPER middle income neighborhoods.

Perhaps a massive infilling of the neighborhoods (existing housing torn down for new housing) could turn this around, but the foundational "good bones + desirable architectural details" seems to me to be missing...

That plus the lack of vicinity to dwtn, midtwn and other 'happening' areas of the city

This goes for Stone Mountain as well, when we first started our move to ATL housing search we looked at stn Mtn and South Dekalb, we are a bi-racial family,so we are not so much put off by the predominately black status, but we wanted to buy in an area with the potential of rising housing prices due to revitalization and ranches, splits and tract housing is NOT going to go anywhere in value, maybe even flatlining for a very long time....

In small pockets, homes which were custom built by upper-middle class families will be desirable... for example at lot of 60s/70s housing stock is blah, but a neighborhood of what I call 'Brady Bunch' homes can hold some long-term appeal. (Mr Brady was an architect, so they Brady home was a step or two above the norm for that period)

Correct me if I am calling this wrong... but I see a vicious circle, poor housing stock = poor schools, round and round... Grant Park, East Atlanta, and other areas have a decent housing stock & therefore revitalizing these areas was possible...

Another part of the vicious circle is the economic disparity btwn the races... my husband got very little to no inheritance when his folks died, whereas my inheritance is enough to be placed in a trustfund... more money = more choices = choosing a better neighborhood

So... unless you are led to be an urban pioneer, as we are, I see no incentive for moving to South DeKalb, or Stn Mtn for that matter...

But even the Urban Pioneer decision is based on immediate economic choices we are free to make, such as the choice we are considering to either homeschool and/or drive our kids to schools outside our immediate, urban pioneer, neighborhood.

And the decision to Urban Pioneer is also based on the potential for a long term investment, and South Dekalb and Stn Mtn hold no such carrot to entice me to want to buy a home in either area...

I have a friend, who is white, who came back from the mission field in Africa and enrolled her son in schools in a h.s. in Stn Mtn, I'm not sure which one or even if there is more than one h.s. in Stn Mtn... anyhoo, she pulled him out after the first semester, because she was appalled at the QUALITY of education he was receiving, the expectations were appalling low, according to what a third friend relayed to me. I believe it, because here in St. Paul we have had our kids in suburban, mostly white, schools in the past and now they are in urban, mostly minority, but not necessarily black, schools... the disparity in EXPECTATIONS is appalling, and that issue NEEDS to be addressed if any change is going to come to any schools seeking to improve.

South DeKalb, and Stone Mountain, the first two areas we considered, held no longterm incentives or potential, and very little to no appealing housing stock - at least that was our take on those areas... scouting our options from afar, as we are doing.

[StPaulEastSider]

Whilst looking at moving to Atlanta next year, which shall be when our 2nd daughter is about to embark upon her freshman year in high school, finding a good public school is of paramount importance to us... we may decide to home school our two middle-school aged children, but we want our older daughter to attend a "real" high school.

Looking at APS, the three top magnet schools we considered are Grady, North Fulton and Mays High Schools. Why just these three? Simple, these are the only three programs which require a minimum GPA for students applying to their programs, by that fact alone I eliminated every other public high school in APS from my list.

[If anyone wants to make a case for any other APS high school, please feel free to DM me... I'll even call you to discuss the matter if you feel strongly about a school, DM with your number. :-) ]

Grady's Communication Magnet Program is appealing due to it's diversity, and location... however getting into this program is, from what I understand, HIGHLY competitive... HIGHLY competitive. Fortunately, the kid in question is not necessarily a good fit, academically, for the focus of the Grady program.

North Atlanta's magnet program, international studies and the I.B. program, is also not this daughter's "thing"... and we were looking at moving to south or southwest Atlanta, so by location and academic emphasize, North Atlanta was ruled out.

But Math & Science, the magnet program at Mays H.S. is her "thing"... this child has wanted to be a forensic scientist since 3rd grade and, more recently, she is talking about pursuing a career as a medical examiner.

So, Benjamin Mays H.S. it is, they seem to have a good program...

++++++++++

Comparing economic makeup of the students at the three schools:

Mays: 61 % of the students receive free and reduced lunch, so it's not completely middle class.

North Atlanta: 60% of the students receiving free and reduced lunches.

Grady: Only 44% of students receiving free and reduced lunches.

Conclusion: Only GRADY can be considered a predominately middle-class school.

+++++++++++++

Now let's compare racial make up of North Atlanta vs. Mays vs. Grady...

North Atlanta: Black 70%, White 13%, Hispanic 12%, Asian 3%, Multi-Racial 3%, American Indian <1%

Mays: Black 98 %, Hispanic 2%, White, Hispanic & Multi-Racial <1%, American Indian, not listed

Grady: Black 68%, White 26%, Hispanic 3%, Multi-Racial 2%, Asian 1%, American Indian, not listed

+++++++++

And Overall School Rankings, from the GreatSchools website:

Mays: 6/10

North Atlanta: 3/10

Grady: 7/10

+++++++++

My Analysis:

Based on economic makeup of Grady HS, the top rating of the 3 schools is not surprising, the greater percentage of NON-free&reduced lunch students at Grady HS should easily tip the scales giving Grady the potential of a higher overall rating... but just one point better than Mays HS?

Considering the gap in the number of students receiving free and reduced lunches, is cause for pause, at least in my opinion it is... Grady should, in my view, be doing better than just one point above Mays. Either that, or Mays is doing VERY WELL by it's students, both middle-class and disadvantaged. I would venture to guess the disadvantaged students are pulling down Grady's overall average? If so, that would mean Grady is not reaching it's economically disadvantaged students - at least not when compared to Mays.

Put it this way... the nearly 20 percentage points difference for disadvantaged students at Mays ought to HANDICAP Mays to an extent that, overall, the conclusion can be made that MAYS is the better school - overall. A shocking conclusions, perhaps, considering Grady's reputation as the premiere high school in the APS district... but think about it for a moment, I sincerely believe this is a logical conclusion based on the facts at hand.

Taking a look at North Atlanta, it's actually MORE diverse than Grady, although by reputation, even in this very thread, one might be lead to believe Grady is the most diverse APS high school.

[As an aside, I am wondering if North Atlanta may have a larger percentage of immigrant, english as a second language, students... if so, that may explain the significantly lower overall rating as compared to Grady and Mays. In St. Paul the schools with significant immigrant populations struggle greatly to stay ahead of NCLB sanctions - without success in the case of some schools, including my older daughter's school with apredominate Hmong and Somali ESL population.]

++++++++

Conclusion:

I made the decision to enroll my daughter in Mays HS when we get to Atlanta, if we cannot get her into the magnet program, we will drive her to school each day... but I have talked to a principal at Mays and her prospects for getting into the Math and Science Magnet program look good. Considering how competitive Grady High School seems to be, I doubt I could plop into town in June and get a student enrolled in the magnet program at Grady the following fall... it may not happen that way at Mays in the end, but we hope it all work out for our daughter to enroll in the Math & Science Magnet Program at Mays.

+++++++++

My question is:

Since Mays is THAT much better than North Atlanta, and not much, if at all, "worse" than Grady, why do we not see more non-black students at Mays High School?

Also note, Math and Science, being as important as they are, should, so it seems to me, hold a strong draw as a magnet school, but only black (98%) and Hispanic (2%) seem to be interested in Mays' Math & Science Magnet Program... and these student, apparently, are not beating down the door to get in - if Mays does have a long waiting list, I doubt I would have been given any indication at all that it may be possible to enroll my daughter into the magnet program at Mays upon our arrival in Atlanta -which is scheduled to happen in June just prior to her freshman year of high school. Typically, applications for magnet programs have to be submitted by January or February of a student's 8th grade year [we plan to submit an application, from afar, on schedule... if just to make our desire, and her desire, to enroll in this program known to the selection committee at Mays.]

Yes, I know Mays HS borders on Cascade Heights and i know that's THE predominate Intown AA upper-income community, and I recognize all that signifies, or at least I think I do, being the white, northerner that I am...

But still, I don't REALLY "get it", because a good school is a good school in my book. Yes??? No??? It seems white parent in the city of Atlanta do not agree with this assessment, at least not enough to send their kids to Mays HS.

With a city-wide busing option with the magnet program (if the APS magnet option includes city-wide busing, I assume it does) why does Mays HS not attract more non-white students??

This question has perplexed me for a couple of months now - ever since I did this research and reached the conclusion we plan to enroll our daughter at Mays H.S. once we arrive in Atlanta next year.

+++++

As an aside note... [my personal musings, please don't attack me on this part...]

Our kids are bi-racial, black/white. However, deciding to sent them to Mays was a bit of a decision, mostly because I have NEVER wanted to send them to an all-white school, we moved from the suburbs of St. Paul into St. Paul proper to get them into a more diverse school environment, and now we are choosing to send our daughter to an all black school?? But also, I hesitated because our kids are not always immediately recognized as black, not even by their black peers.

I should be quick to say here, my husband, the black and Georgia-born half of our marriage, didn't hesitate for a moment at the question of whether or not we really wanted to send our daughter to an all-black school...

So maybe this was just my issue/ my hesitation... now that we made our decision, I do wonder, if my daughter were all white, what decision would I have made? Just keeping it real here, but this is what I'm thinking... 85% black, 10% white?? I believe I would be okay with sending my white child to the school.

98% black and 2% Hispanic?? [this is Mays' stats] Honestly, I think any white parent who says he/she wouldn't hesitate for a moment is a LIAR.
In part because - at least I think this to be true - the social restraints on reverse-racism are not that apparent, not taught as explicitly, and are not practiced consistently. I am an adult, I can take whatever is dished out... but to put my kid in that pathway?? sigh... i dunno...

This is not to say the white parents won't decide to send their kid to the all-black school regardless, but the hesitation is bound to happen... just as I hesitate to stop and think about the implications of entering into a long-term relationship with a black man when my husband and I first started dating and it became apparent, rather quickly, that this was not going to end in a month or two...

In our specific case, our kids are are very light-skinned, due, I believe, to the large percentage of Native American blood running through my husband's veins, in fact one of his grandparents happens to be 1/2 white and 1/2 Native American. [In fact, our kids are so light it's even been suggested I stepped out on my husband, I don't know if I should get angry or cry when this question is raised, depending on the circumstances, I've done both - sometimes in relation to the same incident! The truth is, anyone who raised this question is being mean, because you can see both my husband and myself in all our kids - resemblance does not begin and end with skin tone!]

Just how "light" are my kids? Ummm... think "Paris-Michael Katherine Jackson"... yep. Even got the blond highlights in two of my kids, all the others are as light in complexion as Michael's kids. They are usually thought to be mixed with something, but the guess is usually Hispanic before black.

[And yes, I do believe MJ's kids are his biological kids, at least I do now that we've gotten a good look at them... but that's a whole 'nother discussion, is it not?]

Our kids have had to, at times, inform their classmates, including their black classmates, that they are indeed black... sometimes this has resulted in an argument, with my kids showing off their "dad" at conferences and school functions in an effort to "prove" they are indeed black. Sometimes the other kids still think their dad is really their step-dad... shrug.

Statistically-speaking, my kids mostly self-identify as black, but sometimes as multi-racial - I guess it depends upon their mood at the time. I'll allow my daughter to choose which box to check when we enroll her at Mays High School.

[OhioNative]

Originally Posted by marjoriexxx

I teach in Mentor, Ohio where you (OhioNative) went to school and lived. I am black. Many people of color now live in Mentor. The high school is not almost 100% white today. People have learned that taxes are much less in Mentor than in many other suburbs. You get more house for the money as well. OhioNative, check the real stats before you write!!

According to the "real stats," Mentor High School had 20 black students last year. Out of a school of thousands of students, that is very close to 100% white. I am in Mentor right now, and it is so much whiter than any area in Atlanta that it feels very strange, as I am much more used to the diversity.

[bayarea-girl]

Can't say I know all the in and out history of Georgia. I know the history about the colleges and civil rights and all of that. Personally I remember when my father bought his home in GA and crosses were being burned next door because blacks were moving into an all white neighborhood (it was not that long ago) and I even remember when Stone Mountain was predominately all white & when Oprah went to GA to talk about racism. From that time I had no desire to leave CA and or visit GA again.

The Olympics came into town I noticed a change. Then 10 years ago I went back I fell in love with GA, it seemed like at that time there were only blacks and whites and hardly anything in between. A year ago I returned it was so mixed (some of everything was in Atlanta). Whites moved back to the city, some parts of the city got worse, and many parts advanced beyond my imagination.

Now my sole motivation when I thought about moving to GA was centered around cost of living and family. The best public schools were my primary concern and environment (I don't care if I live in all white or all black area as long as the schools are good and the area has what I like). Schools were better in the North Suburbs when you look at test scores. I remembered my father's friend that moved to Stone Mountain when he bought and none of her 3 kids finished high school. Now when we moved to Roswell I loved it for the schools, the shopping, the manicured lawns, everything (and coming from CA that is how you want to live which is pretty darn hard if you are not a gazillionare). But black people that found that we lived in Roswell very much disliked us being there and didn't hold back on the comments. There were comments from whites as to why out of all places did we choose Roswell from CA. For the most part both blacks and white Real Estate agents detered me from the area and thought I'd prefer an area with more blacks like Lithonia or Stone Mountain, again I had to remind them of what I like and preference for schools. For the most part whites in Roswell were nice and I felt no racism in Roswell although blacks would project that there is racism there. My husband thought the kids should have diversity, the Principal was black and there were plenty of black employees, and black kids there and that was good enough for me (heck at this time my kids need to be learning Chinese the way our economy is going). I know his diversity pitch that he went over with me was due to the fact that he felt uncomfortable living amongst a lot of white people. Like I told him I don't care who I live around as long as my kids get a good education and people are respectful. Whites didn't call the police and or clutch their purse (the clutching the purse actually happened one time I take it back) and the police didn't follow us like they do in certain parts of CA.

Now to all the people that say that GA is segregated well I've got to tell you, I love the fact that blacks, whites, asians, and whatever in GA don't hide the way they feel. If whites don't want to live near blacks they move far out as they can in one direction and the blacks that don't want to be bothered move in the other direction, what's the problem? I guess my only problem is when I hear and see some weird white people that say they have to get their country back and go over all that founding fathers stuff, and say things like OMG those people are coming, that kinda stuff bothers me a bit but people should live where they are comfortable.

Atlanta and its suburbs to me are more diverse than the bay area & ca. White people in GA will live amongst us bearing crime is not an issue (and I don't blame them). I thought whites would never live in Oakland, CA but they are. So I really think it has less to do with a black and white issue over time. White and blacks know each other as neighbors in Atlanta and I LOVE this. Atlanta and some of its burbs are truly some of the few places I've lived in where blacks and whites can live right next to each other and thows that don't want to, don't. A lot of neighoborhoods need to be revitalized and schools need to be better. With all the changes I've noticed in and around Atlanta over all these years, the only option for it to do is continue to change. Less desireable areas today will be some of the most sought after and integrated. But I must say the segregation of today is not what it was in the past because most of the self-segregation is not from the people from Georgia but from the people that move to GA from other places. I don't think the new comers are racisit (some might be) but when people go to GA for the first time, the downtown is not sprawling like other cities others came from, it diffently has an urban feel, now when they go to the burbs it is everything they wanted (especially if they have a family), but too many newbies get bored out of their minds in the burbs and move to the city and or wish they did over time.

Now when we move back and we are going to make another go at it, the area won't be all black or all white but a mixture. We'll pay more for the diversity and will most likely have to put our kids in private school. But we'll be more than comfortable.

[marjoriexxx]

Originally Posted by OhioNative

According to the "real stats," Mentor High School had 20 black students last year. Out of a school of thousands of students, that is very close to 100% white. I am in Mentor right now, and it is so much whiter than any area in Atlanta that it feels very strange, as I am much more used to the diversity.

OhioNative, you live in Suwanee. Thus, I will give you stats about schools in your own neighborhood.

Collins Hill High 17% Black

North Gwinnett 12% Black

Peachtree Ridge 19% Black

This info is in publicschoolreview.com
Those are all less than 20% black, OhioNative. Let's add more to fuel the flame.

Buford High 15% Black
Duluth High 16% Black
Dacula High 19% Black
Mill Creek High 12% Black
Parkview High 12% Black

Gee, your own school district. Hmmm! Mentor High has 20% Black( more than all of the above). Take off your rose colored glasses.


FYI : I just left Atlanta. I attended my college reunion at Spelman.