Segregation (Atlanta, Stone Mountain, Harlem: sales, credit card, Home Depot)

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by StPaulEastSider

At some point, as gentrification continues ITP, I think Mays will likely be "discovered" by white parents and will begin to be integrated. Or am I just being naive to think so? I don't know.

I can tell you are a pretty swell person (I usually enjoy your posts very much)...but to answer your question, yes, a bit naive.

We have to face the real truth (elephant in the room) of why many white parents won't/don't send their kids to majority black schools.

[StPaulEastSider]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

The original post I was referring to said nothing about the kid being a math or science whiz, which would be a reason to consider Mays' program, the same way being a communications whiz would be a reason to consider Grady for that program.

Regarding the "private schools or Grady" comment, I'd say you're probably right that many white parents would choose those options. I'd also say that many black parents would look at other options before sending their children to a school that's 98% white. Sorry to say, but that's reality.

I'm not going to argue with you here... this is reality. For me, coming from Minnesota as I am, it's not a reality I grew up around, so it's always a little shocking / surprising / thought-provoking to me.

Especially since, ITP, in the City of Atlanta, amongst liberal, progressive families, the decisions which are made in matters such as where they decide to send their kids to school, methinks, really speaks volumes more than how they may vote or what they purport to believe.

When push comes to shove, white parents make the decision to send their kid to private schools, or to drive their kid to another school across town, time and time again. If a well-integrated school, such as Grady, exists and is available to them, then they may send their kid to a public school. But if their decision to not send their kids to an all-black school is made because the school is an all-black school will they admit this, publicly? Nay. They will say they are making this decision to send their kids to the private school, or to drive them to a school outside of district or zoning, for xyz reasons, any reason other than the truth... with the truth being they don't want to subject their kids to an all-black school.

With black families, the fight to integrate was of political and spiritual and economic and historical importance. For white parents, there is no such incentive to put their own kids on the front lines... and I don't know if I can blame these parents, but I do wish there would be honest dialogue instead of the hiding behind excuses and dodging the truth which I've seen in this thread.

Elvez's comments do more to advance this discussion than do what most everyone else said, combined. Talking about most whites ITP not having kids just skirts the fact many do have kids, talking about townhouses and condos just skirts the fact many beautiful Victorian and Bungalow single family homes are being purchased and rennovated for families, families who may not want a huge yard to maintain, families who are socially conscious and want to live sustainable lifestyles within the city. Not all yuppies, once they settle down and have kids, choose to move to the suburbs - this kind of answer is just skirting of the questions at hand. And not all parents want to send their kids to private schools, many consider this a necessary evil due to the lack of available public school options. Working within the public school system is going to do much more to build your community, and raise your home values over time, than is sending your kids off to a private school.

The truth is this, white parents, no matter what their political/social leanings, do want their kids to be put on the frontlines of integrating an all-black school. Most white schools in the year 2009 have been desegregated. However segregated all-black schools remain.

Desegragating black schools. if this is indeed a goal of progressive-minded individuals who seek racial reconciliation, is going to take WHITE parents making the decision to send their kids to predominately black schools. It happens, it's not unheard of ... I have a good friend whose sister is involved in an inner-city mission in D.C. are sends her kids to all-black schools in D.C. So I know it happens, but it's rare, very, very rare.

My question now is this... Is desegregating all-black schools a worthy and desirable goal? Yes or No.

If yes, what is it going to take for this to happen?
I think it will take both white parents being willing to send their kids to all-black schools AND the black community learning to be welcoming and accepting, at least political correct, in their interactions with whites who dare enter into an all-black community, such as a school.

[StPaulEastSider]

Originally Posted by aries4118

I can tell you are a pretty swell person (I usually enjoy your posts very much)...but to answer your question, yes, a bit naive.

We have to face the real truth (elephant in the room) of why many white parents won't/don't send their kids to majority black schools.

Thank you for the compliment Aries, same back at you... ;-)

So, tell me, what is the real truth, the elephant in the room, of why many white parents won't/don't send their kids to majority black schools?

[This ties in with my post of a few minutes ago, but since you posed the question so succinctly, I thought I'd seize upon the opportunity to "go in for the kill."]

This question is open to everyone!

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by aries4118

lol..you posted too quickly Bobby...elvez proved my question right just below your post! Man, I'm good!



And...he/she has said it on several other occasions...my post was not solely about his recent posts. Pay attention, Robert!

He didn't prove anything other than that he's frustrated by having to deal with near-death incidents involving young blacks with guns- this proves neither a general dislike of blacks, or a dislike of urban living. In fact, he probably would love urban living if it wasn't for the above mentioned incidents, which are likely to somewhat jade one's opinions, don'tcha think?

[BobKovacs]

My comments in bold.

Originally Posted by StPaulEastSider

I'm not going to argue with you here... this is reality. For me, coming from Minnesota as I am, it's not a reality I grew up around, so it's always a little shocking / surprising / thought-provoking to me.

Especially since, ITP, in the City of Atlanta, amongst liberal, progressive families, the decisions which are made in matters such as where they decide to send their kids to school, methinks, really speaks volumes more than how they may vote or what they purport to believe.

When push comes to shove, white parents make the decision to send their kid to private schools, or to drive their kid to another school across town, time and time again. If a well-integrated school, such as Grady, exists and is available to them, then they may send their kid to a public school. But if their decision to not send their kids to an all-black school is made because the school is an all-black school will they admit this, publicly? Nay. They will say they are making this decision to send their kids to the private school, or to drive them to a school outside of district or zoning, for xyz reasons, any reason other than the truth... with the truth being they don't want to subject their kids to an all-black school.

Flip the words "white" and "black" in your paragraph above, and you'll get the same answer. If a black family has the means to send their kids to an all-white school, or send them to one with a blend of students, they're not going to choose the all-white school any more often than the white family would choose the all-black school. You, personally, may be willing to be a trendsetter, but the majority of folks (of all colors) aren't.

With black families, the fight to integrate was of political and spiritual and economic and historical importance. For white parents, there is no such incentive to put their own kids on the front lines... and I don't know if I can blame these parents, but I do wish there would be honest dialogue instead of the hiding behind excuses and dodging the truth which I've seen in this thread.

I think you meant to say "for some black families"- many haven't participated in the "fight to integrate", and many don't care to. You can't speak in absolutes.

Elvez's comments do more to advance this discussion than do what most everyone else said, combined. Talking about most whites ITP not having kids just skirts the fact many do have kids, talking about townhouses and condos just skirts the fact many beautiful Victorian and Bungalow single family homes are being purchased and rennovated for families, families who may not want a huge yard to maintain, families who are socially conscious and want to live sustainable lifestyles within the city. Not all yuppies, once they settle down and have kids, choose to move to the suburbs - this kind of answer is just skirting of the questions at hand. And not all parents want to send their kids to private schools, many consider this a necessary evil due to the lack of available public school options. Working within the public school system is going to do much more to build your community, and raise your home values over time, than is sending your kids off to a private school.

The truth is this, white parents, no matter what their political/social leanings, do want their kids to be put on the frontlines of integrating an all-black school. Most white schools in the year 2009 have been desegregated. However segregated all-black schools remain.

And there are plenty of black families that do not want to put their kids "on the front lines" in an all-white school either. And where are these "segregated all-black schools" you speak of? There are some schools that are all-black, but that's a function of the population in the zone- not some forced program.

Desegragating black schools. if this is indeed a goal of progressive-minded individuals who seek racial reconciliation, is going to take WHITE parents making the decision to send their kids to predominately black schools. It happens, it's not unheard of ... I have a good friend whose sister is involved in an inner-city mission in D.C. are sends her kids to all-black schools in D.C. So I know it happens, but it's rare, very, very rare.

My question now is this... Is desegregating all-black schools a worthy and desirable goal? Yes or No.
If yes, what is it going to take for this to happen?

It's not a matter of "desegregating schools", it's a matter of gentrifying neighborhoods. People aren't going to go out of their way to send their kids to a school "just because", or to further some agenda. When/if Vine City starts to see a higher number of white families with kids moving in, Mays and the other schools there will start to see higher white populations- that's what its "going to take to make it happen". It's happened/happening in other ITP areas, it's just not happening there yet, so it provides an opportunity for you to say "there's segregated black schools in Altanta". There are similar areas in Camden, St. Louis, Newark, etc.- should white families just send their kids into the schools in those areas to "desegregate them"?

I think it will take both white parents being willing to send their kids to all-black schools AND the black community learning to be welcoming and accepting, at least political correct, in their interactions with whites who dare enter into an all-black community, such as a school.

I italicized a key part above that is a point folks sometimes forget. If I was to send my daughters to Mays HS, it's highly unlikely that they'd be welcomed with open arms. So my question back to you is-

What's it going to take to get the black community to be welcoming and accepting of such a situation?

[StPaulEastSider]

In response to:

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

The original post I was referring to said nothing about the kid being a math or science whiz, which would be a reason to consider Mays' program, the same way being a communications whiz would be a reason to consider Grady for that program.

POST #135 :

Originally Posted by elvez

Why would I want to bus my kids all the way to Mays when Grady is ten minutes from my house? SAT scores at Grady are higher to boot. I am also sure that some kids at Mays would welcome my kids there, but I am also sure that some of the kids would give my kids trouble. Why would I want to subject them to that?

POST #136

Originally Posted by StPaulEastSider

Why would you want to bus your kid across town? Because your kid is a math & science kid and Mays' magnet program is math and science while Grady's magnet program is communications.

[Note: While Grady's SAT scores may be higher overall, within the Mays Magnet program I would venture to guess they are fairly similar... Grady has the advantage of nearly 20% of it's students coming from middle-class homes, which is a significant advantage.]

Elvez never responded to my post #136. <shrug>

The fact is, white parents in the City of Atlanta with a "math & science whiz" [I like your wording there] are NOT choosing to send their kids to Mays.

If they are considering Mays at all, methinks they may look at the SAT scores and quickly use the results to dismiss Mays, without taking the time to look at "below the numbers" at why Mays has SAT scores which are lower than Grady's SAT scores. Really, their numbers are not THAT much lower than Grady, not when other mitigating factors are considered.

And the fact Mays has a slightly higher science achievement score, across the school, in a school population which presents a much steeper to climb to post said scores as compared to Grady's school population, is overlooked, because it is just slightly higher. But these numbers really are impressive because they are school-wide numbers, and that says a lot about how well Mays is doing, not just for the gifted and talented students in the Magnet program, but also how well they are addressing the needs of their entire student population.

I will admit, my experience on curriculum committees, on Title 1 Advisory Committees and on the site councils and/or PTAs at several schools, as well as my years as a home educator, has given me the insight into test scores, and the full meaning and implication of said scores, which others may not see. That's why I shared my analysis of Mays' vs Grady's SAT scores in this thread.


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[RANT]

The amount of data collected by schools, by the way, is STAGGERING. Analyzing the data can be all consuming. One piece of data can cancel out any conclusions made by looking at another piece of data - back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

This much I know, simply looking at SAT scores is a cop-out. SAT scores do not really prove how well a school is doing "under the hood", across the entire population of the school.

My daughter, who is about to be a senior in high school, was told as a freshman in high school, at a very well-regarded suburban school [Moundsview High School in Minnesota] that she needed remedial classes and 'was not college material'.

Well geez, this type of indoctrination will effectively keep a school's test scores and ranking very high. Moundsview High School ranks 10/10 at GreatSchools dot net. But it's in a well-to-do suburb which is the home of Bosten Scientific and Medtronics, to name a just a couple empoloyers in this district.

But what does it say about Moundsview High School if only the 'high flyers', the 'gifted and talented' students are encouraged to pursue college prep coursework and to take the college entrance exams?

If only the students enrolled in AP courses sign up to take the college entrance exams, and if only a quarter, or fewer, of the school's students are allowed to even enroll in AP courses, then the school's overall SAT score is going to be higher than a school which may encourage all of it's students to continue their educations past high school.

This is why Minnesota posts the highest ACT scores in the nation, but also has the largest b/w achievement gap in nation. There is not a culture in MN which encourages ALL students to reach for college. "Not everyone is cut out for college" is true, but it's used all to often in my home state, in my opinion, to justify not pushing students to reach to obtain their full potential. And there is also a lack of understanding regarding cultural barriers in Minnesota, which also contributes to the achievement gap.

I don't know if Moundsview High School made any assumptions about my daughter because she's black, or 1/2 black, but I'm not quite ready to rule out that possibility.

As another example, I was talking to a fellow dog-lover about a pitbull who mulled a kid to death in North Minneapolis a couple years ago. Now I own two pitbull mutts and am a strong proponent of the breed, but what this woman said appalled and shocked me... she felt sorry for the dog who had been abused, but of the kid she said, "He never had a chance anyway." Her tone, and in the context of the conversation, made it clear she was totally dismissive of this child - she felt more concern for the dog than the child! Why? Because it was a black kid from da 'hood? *sigh*

I am always on guard for schools which, as part of their culture, are dismissive of kids and what they can accomplish with their lives. I am not going to say Moundview had any conscious or consorted conspiracy to discount certain populations of students, but it happens. It happens.

My daughter will be going to college in a year, she is editor-in-chief of her school newspaper, an inner-city school, this next school year. She is not a kid to whom academics comes easily, she's worked hard for every decimal point of her GPA.

I have a couple other kids who seemingly effortlessly post high scores consistently, this kid is not like that... but she's got the fire and desire to succeed and she's college bound.

But only, methinks, because we yanked her out of Moundsview High School after just one semester. That semester's GPA is a thorn in her side as she applies to colleges, but at least she can show significant improvement over time. She's not headed to the Ivy's, but she's going to do just fine in college, and beyond, because she has been inspired to reach for her dreams.

Parent's can only do so much, kids know we will always tell them we believe in them. Attending a school where the teachers tell kids, all kids, even the kids who are not "high flyers" that they CAN succeed is very, very important. That's what I look for in a school, because if my child were ever to falter and trip up a bit, show that he/she is not perfect, I want teachers, a school environment, which is encouraging and supportive and believes in what kids, all kids, can accomplish - if they are just willing to work hard and apply themselves to the task at hand.

If you ONLY use SAT scores to determine if a school is a good school or not you may choose an environment where "the end justifies the means" and the entire school, or school district, is focused on one goal... which is posting sky-high test scores.

[/RANT]

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by StPaulEastSider

Lack of appealing housing stock... bottom line problem for future economic development and thus diversity of any area....

IMHO, ranches and tract houses = not sexy (to borrow terminology from someone upthread... :-)

The size of the lots in the area is also an issue, when I looked at East Point the lot sizes were good, Stn Mtn maybe okay, much of South Dekalb = tiny lots... this is okay for very much Intown lots, but the further OUT one gets, the more LAND one feels entitled to when purchasing a home.

This same lack of appealing housing stock will continue to keep taxes for the schools in this area far below other Atlanta area, especially Northern Fulton County - thus the schools in South DeKalb will continue to suffer, therefore the presumption in this question is inherently false. The schools in South Dekalb will not get better w/o a housing stock to support higher incomes and higher incomes are not going to be attracted to the existing housing stock. Round and round.

Most of these areas seem to me to have the potential to be working or lower class neighborhoods AT BEST going forward 20-30 years and that is never going to produce EXCELLENT schools - black, white or other... really good schools are almost always in UPPER middle income neighborhoods.

Perhaps a massive infilling of the neighborhoods (existing housing torn down for new housing) could turn this around, but the foundational "good bones + desirable architectural details" seems to me to be missing...

That plus the lack of vicinity to dwtn, midtwn and other 'happening' areas of the city

This goes for Stone Mountain as well, when we first started our move to ATL housing search we looked at stn Mtn and South Dekalb, we are a bi-racial family,so we are not so much put off by the predominately black status, but we wanted to buy in an area with the potential of rising housing prices due to revitalization and ranches, splits and tract housing is NOT going to go anywhere in value, maybe even flatlining for a very long time....

In small pockets, homes which were custom built by upper-middle class families will be desirable... for example at lot of 60s/70s housing stock is blah, but a neighborhood of what I call 'Brady Bunch' homes can hold some long-term appeal. (Mr Brady was an architect, so they Brady home was a step or two above the norm for that period)

Correct me if I am calling this wrong... but I see a vicious circle, poor housing stock = poor schools, round and round... Grant Park, East Atlanta, and other areas have a decent housing stock & therefore revitalizing these areas was possible...

Most of your points have been simply stellar, but I have to disagree with you on this one. The housing stock in South DeKalb is identical to the housing stock in virtually every other OTP community in the counties that border I-285. DeKalb, Henry, Clayton, South Fulton, Douglas, Cobb and Gwinnett all have their fair share of opulent and "non-sexy" split-levels and ranches. Even areas like around Lavista and Northlake or Glenwood ITP have a fair share of ranches and split-levels. However, some people just hook them up. I've been in a few 1970's split-levels in Lithonia (off Panola and Young Rd) that looked as if you've stepped into a midtown loft, or a charming intown cottage when you walk inside. They do the same kind of things that intown homeowners do... update their homes.

If a home has bad "bones," the houses are so cheap, that if one tore it/them completely down and built new, they would still save money to get more land, etc.

People always argue about the crime, but the stats show that virtually every intown community has more crime than the Stone Mountain, Lithonia, and (unincorporated) Decatur areas. Not saying that we don't have crime. I'm just saying that these hot areas (and even the established areas like Virginia Highlands) have more. My home is virtually on the border of Lithonia, Stone Mountain and Decatur (what some call the Redan area), and I went to a (white) friend's house in Mableton and it was nearly identical to mine. But, which area has the worst reputation, South DeKalb or South Cobb? Why? (You touch on it thoroughly in your later posts...)

Then you mentioned proximity to the city. Well, it's 15.1 to 17.3 miles from the corner of Covington Hwy and Panola Rd (depending on the route) to the heart of downtown Atlanta. The Roswell Town Center [Alpharetta Hwy and Holcomb Bridge] is 23 miles to the heart of downtown. From downtown Marietta to downtown Atlanta, it's 18 to 22.2 miles. From downtown Norcross to downtown Atlanta, it's 19.8 miles. I hope you see my point.

The Stone Mountain, Decatur, Lithonia areas were all white and quite desirable for quite some time; it only became predominantly black in the last 20 to 30 years. Additionally, most intown communities along I-20 were highly undesirable for quite some time. So you're saying that people just started hating split-levels and loving bungalows all of a sudden and started moving intown? I guess that's partially true, but whites are moving to the ranches and split levels in Gwinnett and Cobb. I think social preferences play as much of a role as architectural preferences. Why aren't they moving to the same types of houses in South DeKalb and South Fulton? The homes are virtually identical to the homes in any 285-bordering OTP community, including the sizes of the lots. (Only cheaper.) The main OTP communities that have noticeably smaller lot sizes are those newer McMansion communities, (and McMansions aren't exclusively in South DeKalb). I'll be blunt and say that I think the fact that those areas are majority black has a lot to do with it. (As you mention in other posts)

So I agree that OTP real estate pales in comparison to intown real estate. But the only thing different amongst OTP real estate is the people that live there.

Lastly, I'll discuss amenities. I mentioned this in another thread, but South DeKalb wants a Whole Foods Market and a Fresh Market and a P.F. Chang's. These companies are losing major money by not investing in this untapped recourse. We don't want beauty supplies stores and Zaxby's and KFC/Taco Bell's at every corner. But "somebody" (?) thinks that's all we'll buy. People forget that while DeKalb has it's faults, its still one of the most affluent African-American communities in the country, yet we have to deal with crappy amenities or drive to other parts of Atlanta because South DeKalb's %*#@ stigma makes people scared to invest.

Other than this real estate point, I think your other points are strikingly valid. But with all this said, you still feel there's no hope for South DeKalb?

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by equinox63

Lastly, I'll discuss amenities. I mentioned this in another thread, but South DeKalb wants a Whole Foods Market and a Fresh Market and a P.F. Chang's. These companies are losing major money by not investing in this untapped recourse. We don't want beauty supplies stores and Zaxby's and KFC/Taco Bell's at every corner. But "somebody" (?) thinks that's all we'll buy. People forget that while DeKalb has it's faults, its still one of the most affluent African-American communities in the country, yet we have to deal with crappy amenities or drive to other parts of Atlanta because South DeKalb's %*#@ stigma makes people scared to invest.

Those companies you mentioned all do extensive (and expensive) studies to figure out where to locate their stores. You say "somebody" thinks you won't buy, and you're correct- the studies indicate that South Dekalb won't support Whole Foods, Fresh Market, PF Changs, etc., so the companies are going to spend their limited expansion funds in places where the studies say they'll do well. You don't see alot of cases of those chains having to close a store due to lack of sales, so so far their data has been correct.

[StPaulEastSider]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

My comments in bold.

You made excellent points across the board here, I can't really disagree with you anywhere in your above post.

However, I am not sure what point your were intending to be italicized, since the quote function italicized the entire post.

I understand what you are saying about gentrification vs. desegregation leading to the eventual desegregation of black schools, including Mays.

I guess I just wonder if desegregating [prior to gentrification] of black schools should even be a goal, a vision, something to talk about and push for, within both the black and the white communities.

Last night Chris Matthews of MSNBC's Hardtalk was talking to Bill Maher about touring the south. Maher talked about how the progressive liberals came out of the Republican woodwork at all the southern cities he visited on his tour, which included Atlanta. This comment caught my attention:

Chris Matthews:

"Isn't it refreshing to meet southern Liberals, because the great thing about southern liberals is that they are not competing for the latest nuance of sexual freedom, like in Greenwich Village. They are liberals meaning they are for "black equality" for instance, things like that, that are pretty nice and wholesome."

Maher: "You mean new concepts." [laughter]

As I think about the issues at hand, I am seriously wondering if the black community even WANTS to have their all black schools integrated... or is this just a "progressive liberal" thought of mine?

++++

I suspect some blacks do want to see schools such as Mays integrated, and some don't. My husband is fine with it, obviously, he married me. My brother-in-law? He said to me once, "I don't have any white friends and never will have any white friends." I know there is a certain freedom black folks feel when they are not in a predominately white community, and I respect this.. in fact I feel it myself, there are times, depending on the circumstances, when I am more comfortable in a predominately black community due to the fact my husband and children are black.

Methinks helping all schools reach some of the accomplishments of Mays, while still supporting Mays as it works to improve upon what it's done, is important.

In fact, it seems, from what I've read online, Mays has even lost some ground since rezoning gave them a larger low-income population, gaining and not losing ground is a constant back and forth fight for all schools. With some schools having more hurdles than others.

And, yes, I understand that not all black families led the fight to desegregate black schools, I had the thought to qualify that statement as I typed it - but forgot.

I am really not that much of a trend setter in my decision to send my daughter to Mays, my kids are, after all, 1/2 black. But I will likely be the only white face at parent meetings at Mays once my daughter is enrolled. That may, at times, be interesting. I am sure many people will be accepting and welcoming, but I'm also sure some will not be so accepting or welcoming. At a couple of my kid's schools I am one of only a few white parents to show up for meetings, so I've been in a minority in that setting already, but never the only white parent. Maybe at one or two meetings, but never all the time.

+++++

As for what the black community could be doing to help facilitate white families enrolling their students in all-black schools... you know I cannot speak for the black community!

I may be married to a black man, but there are still certain boundaries... much like your relationship with your in-laws. When push comes to shove, I am still the "married into" member of my black family.

/

++++

Seriously...

At the risk of offending people, I will say this much. Even in my own family, with my teens especially, but once in awhile with my husband as well, I am ganged up on with "you don't know because you aren't black" and "we can say this - but you cannot" and on and on.

I have to let my family, sometimes by 'snapping out' on them, that that type of 'reverse racism', 'playing the race card', 'white guilt' and 'exclusionary alliances along racial lines' is NOT acceptable.


Yeah, this type of give and take is usually done in humor, and I am often dissed for not going along with the humor - by my own family.

But honestly, I don't find it funny, or acceptable. It's exclusionary and propping up oneself at the expense of others - that's not okay, not ever.

There is a double standard and I think, if we are going to be accepting and loving of all, we need to do away with this type of double standards.

Just look at what I said in the above paragraph "you know I can't speak for the black community."

Well, I really wrote that to make a point... we need to have open two-way discourse and everyone needs to be allowed to speak and everyone needs to be heard. NOTHING can be 'off limits' in our discussions.

But more effective than saying 'the blacks need to do this' I think us white folks need to let our black friends know how it feels when we are subjected to 'reverse racism'.

Whites are often insensitive to the struggles and hurdles blacks face each and every day, but blacks are also rather insensitive to what they are REALLY saying or doing when they choose to "play the race card" or cash in on "white guilt" - it's hurtful and frustrating, often to the very people who are the biggest supporters and allies of black people everywhere.

I mean, I encounter this even within my own household. It is real. It needs to be discussed, fully vetted.

Just as whites are taught, systematically, to be sensitive to minorities and "politically correct", to come full circle with racial reconciliation in this country, minorities need to be systematically taught to be 'politically correct' and RESPECTFUL in their interactions with whites.

When I say respectful, I mean in a new racial reconciliation sort of way, where we all recognize one another as first and foremost HUMAN.

Okay Aries, go ahead and tell me I'm being overly idealistic again!

And for any black folks reading this thread, feel free to tell me I'm wrong. Speak freely and clearly. I belive that's the only way we are going to make real progress with race relations in this country - by engaging in an ongoing discourse we can, and will, begin to understand one anther.

People on this board, and in this thread I believe, say "why are we always talking about this?" The reason why is because, I believe, Atlanta is a leader in the area of race, a symbol of both where the south has been and of where the south is going. Navigating from here to there will not happen without both blacks and whites actively engaging in an ongoing discussion of the issues at hand.

Why do we discuss these issues? Because we want a better world for our children, for ALL children.

As a white woman who has been married to a black man for nearly 20 years, I often feel like I, and my kids, are "bridges between the races".

I didn't consciously sign up for this role in life, I just feel in love. I was young, naive and I thought love would conquer it all - and I guess it has, we're still together. But we are only still together because we have had the GUTS to talk through, and work through, all the difficult issues which occur each and every day when people share a household, or a city, or a nation or a planet.

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by StPaulEastSider

You made excellent points across the board here, I can't really disagree with you anywhere in your above post.

However, I am not sure what point your were intending to be italicized, since the quote function italicized the entire post.

The part I thought I'd italicized was:

"AND the black community learning to be welcoming and accepting"

It's not just a matter of white families deciding to place their kids in a predominantly black school- the school's got to be willing to accept them. I'd think my daughter's would be less than warmly accepted into Mays, which would make for a particularly trying environment. Of course, the same can be said for a black student coming into a predominantly white school, though I think that's happened more often, and might not be as unusual in today's day and age.

WRT "is desegregation something that should be done?" I don't think that's really a question any of us here can answer- it's got to come from the folks in that neighborhood, as ultimately it's them who have to live with the results.