Segregation (Atlanta, Sandy Springs, East Point: apartment complex, foreclosure, rent)

[BobKovacs]

See comments in bold

Originally Posted by equinox63

I understand your point and it makes a lot of sense. But no one has addressed the primary question of the thread about racial disparity across Dekalb and Fulton counties...

For example, is it more likely that if that poor intown family that sells their house is black, they are likely to move to the southern ends of Dekalb and Fulton? (If that is their only two choices - for example purposes...) Depends- if they want to be in a racially homogenous area, they may. If they want to go someplace more diverse, they can do that too. It'll depend on what they want, and what they can afford.

Conversely, why don't affuent whites move into the affluent million dollar communities of South Dekalb? I'm sure that some affluent whites do- that's their choice.

Some would say, poor schools. This leads back to the original questions, why are those school almost all Black? Why are the schools on the northern end almost all white? Is this phenomenon a good or bad thing and what if anything should be done about it? The obvious answer is that the populations of those areas are almost "all white" or "all black", and hence the makeup of the schools follows suit- it's not a "phenomenon" at all- it's simple statistics.

Is it a "good or bad thing"? Who determines that? Is it "bad" for there to be an "all-white" school in the northern burbs? Not if that's what the population that moves there accepts- no one is creating a forced all-white school, or excluding black students from that school- that all ended with formal desegregation. People will self-segregate as they see fit- racially, economically, socially, or whatever, and there's nothing you can really do about it.

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

See comments in bold

True indeed...

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by equinox63

True indeed. I stand corrected about my previous statements about Cobb and Gwinnett counties...

Keep in mind, though, that the area where I live (Mableton, located in the southeast of Cobb County) is quite different both demographically and politically from the northeast of Cobb County (the "East Cobb" region).

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by ericsonga

Seeing as both Gwinnett and Cobb were around 90-95% white in 1990 I think we've come a long way!

There has certainly been change, but whether or not that change represents "progress" (except along a linear timeline ) is a probable point of contention.

I've only lived down here since Sep 2004, having moved from the Twin Cities, and I admit I really do like the diversity I see in the southern half of Cobb County, but I came from a metro area which isn't really known for its diversity (though Hmong, Somali, Russian, and other immigrant groups are changing that) and the move to the Atlanta area was a very interesting change for me in many respects. A lot less white both peoplewise and weatherwise.

[Tresninas]

I live in Johns Creek. Before moving here, I lived in Philadelphia, St. Louis, Durham, NC, Chattanooga, Houston, and Detroit.

I have never lived in a more diverse town in my life.

My neighbors are:

1 Malaysian Family
2 Korean Families
1 Puerto Rican Family
4 Indian Families
1 Sri Lankan Family
1 Chinese Family
1 Ethiopian Family
1 Dominican Family

My Book Club has:

1 Ethiopian
1 Pakistani
1 Iranian
2 Blacks
2 Indians
2 Whites
1 Dominican

Our elementary school has about 70-80% Brown students. There are people from about 6 or 7 East Asian Countries, 4-5 South Asian Countries, 5-6 African Countries, 5-6 Hispanic-speaking countries. There are also white and black students.

My children are the only kids I know who don't know at least one other language besides English.

Since we all live in the same school district, we are roughly the same socio-economic class.

I love it.

[mmenomen]

Some people choose to segregate themselves while others really do not care. None of this is unique to Atlanta. Larger metropolitan areas tend to be diverse, anyway. There are people in Atlanta from everywhere. The percentages of people of any race who prefer to live in areas of their own race is unknown and I would bet, if surveys were done, some of the people who choose to segregate would not admit to it. In general, I do not see Atlanta and its environs as segregated as I have seen in other parts of the country. Cleveland and Detroit are areas that indicate more obvious examples of self-conscious segregation.

Most of the areas of metro Atlanta are pretty diverse, yes, the northern metro area tend to be more white, but the public schools are definitely not 90% white in terms of school enrollment in nearly all areas of the Northern metro counties. Except in areas outside metro Atlanta such as Rabun, Dade, White, Union Counties or other parts of extreme North Georgia, northern metro counties like Gwinnett and Cobb County public schools, for instance, are very diverse currently.

[joe2000]

Originally Posted by equinox63

Why do you think that is? Is it a good or bad thing in your opinion? What (if anything) should be done about it? (Specifically in Atlanta...)

In NYC, most blacks live in Harlem or Brooklyn. Most of the PR live in the Bronx. In DC, most blacks live in PG County or SE DC. Most Hispanics live in Takoma/Langley Park. Northern Va is mostly white with a few blacks/hispanics. La is the same. Every city in America is segregated including Chicago, Houston, La, Ny, Miami, DC, Philly, etc.

Nothing should be done. If you are paying 200k for a house you should be able to live where you want. As long as you nobody isnt putting a gun to your head making you live in a certain area it shouldnt matter.

[MisterNY]

Originally Posted by joe2000

In NYC, most blacks live in Harlem or Brooklyn. Most of the PR live in the Bronx. In DC, most blacks live in PG County or SE DC. Most Hispanics live in Takoma/Langley Park. Northern Va is mostly white with a few blacks/hispanics. La is the same. Every city in America is segregated including Chicago, Houston, La, Ny, Miami, DC, Philly, etc.

Nothing should be done. If you are paying 200k for a house you should be able to live where you want. As long as you nobody isnt putting a gun to your head making you live in a certain area it shouldnt matter.

You summed it up.

[mandmrossi]

I am not sure its a segregation issue as you mention. I live in an area that is fairly affluent and there are white, black and other races of folk in the area. I feel its an issue of affordability, job status etc. and where most people feel comfortable living. There is no opposing force that makes decisions for people of where they work, live and raise their family. "Segregation" is an excuse for those not wanting to achieve for themselves...

Regards,

[Sandy Springs Rep.]

Originally Posted by equinox63

Atlanta is now (and has been for some time) noted as one of the most segregated cities/metro areas in America. Although this has reduced slightly in certain intown areas, there is still an economic disparity as, in many cases, relatively affluent intown whites are integrated with poorer intown blacks.

I rarely see whites, blacks, and other races and ethnic groups (even of the same economic standing) living together equally. Is this a bad thing or a good thing in your opinions?

Do you feel that segregation is a problem in Atlanta and what (if anything) should be done about it?

Yeah, self-segregation (people segregating on their own) is definitely a big problem in metro Atlanta. As others have said, though, Atlanta is not any worse than other cities/metro areas, it happens in every part of the country.

It is definitely a bad thing in my opinion, and I think that schools are a big, big part of it.

Originally Posted by equinox63

Here's an example,

Make three lists:

1. Besides Grady (and maybe Lakeside), list the most evenly mixed Metro Atlanta high schools.

2. Then list the predominantly Black metro Atlanta high schools.

3. Then list the predominantly White metro Atlanta high schools.

I'd predict that the 2nd and 3rd lists would be FAR longer than the 1st...

Also, if you really want to make it interesting... map where those schools are located. I think you would start to see the pattern illustrating what i am talking about...

I think you're right, and that's a good way of putting it.

The problem would not be nearly as bad as it is (in fact, I don't think there would be much segregation at all) if schools weren't a factor. As you've probably learned on this forum, one of the TOP priorities for people with kids when they move somewhere is how good the schools are. People care about their children more than anything on earth, and they want the absolute best education they can give them. As we know, how good a school is determined by the students who go there, so the popular belief is that schools with more lower-income minorities who live in apartments aren’t as good as schools with all middle-class kids in single-family homes. This results in all the middle-class white people flocking to the schools with the least apartments and leaving the other schools to rot. It’s a domino effect, everybody is flocking to the places that are known for having “great schools”, and people keep avoiding the other schools more and more, so they get worse and worse until they are 100% non-white. At which point it is impossible to reverse.

I could go on and on about this. But this pattern, to me, is the biggest cause of segregation. I think people are generally more elitist than racist (not to say they aren’t racist too) and black people, as a whole, are below middle-class and white people don’t want to go to school with them, so they avoid areas with large black populations, and blacks get their own segregated areas of metro Atlanta without asking for them.

Not to say that all predominantly black schools are low-income, in fact a lot of them are fairly middle-class, but it seems like most of them have enough low-income blacks to scare whites away and convince them that the school is awful.

Originally Posted by equinox63

I see... I didn't know. I live in south dekalb county and the school systems in this and fulton county just seems a little segregated along the north and south to me. Am I wrong in that perception?

No, not at all. South Fulton is virtually all black (very few Hispanics either), very poor in some areas (and not poor in others), and white people seem to avoid it like the plague. North Fulton is predominantly white, extremely wealthy, and considered to have amazing public schools.

South DeKalb is less poor than South Fulton (from what I gather), but is still all black and North DeKalb is very mixed with blacks and Hispanics alongside affluent whites and the northern tip of DeKalb, Dunwoody, is extremely wealthy on par with North Fulton, East Cobb, but without the "amazing" schools, because there are a few apartment complexes too.

I got most of this information from schools.ajchomefinder.com, but they recently took down the racial percentages, so now they just have test scores, number of reduced lunches, and other things.

Originally Posted by equinox63

Southside (South Dekalb/South Fulton) = predominantly Black
Northside (North Fulton/Outer Northern Suburbs) = Predominantly White
Dunwoody/Buford Hwy = Predominantly Latino/Asian
Clarkston = predominantly Somalian/African
Cobb County = White/Asian
Gwinett County = White/Latino

Remember, these are just a few examples of some broad generalizations, so please do not take offense... but am i wrong here? I'm really not talking about the few exceptions.

Think about your neighborhood... How many of the 4 neighbors to the front back, left, and right of you are of a race other than your own?

And as a mentioned. it is more prevalent in the suburbs. It seems there is more of a racial mix, but economic disparity intown...

As others have said, those aren’t very accurate generalizations. You are right about the north/south divide, but both Cobb and Gwinnett significant black and Hispanic populations. Cobb has slightly more blacks and Gwinnett has slightly more Hispanics but Asians aren’t a big part of the picture. Cobb is not known for having a lot of Asians. Also as other have mentioned, Dunwoody and Buford Highway and pretty different areas , and Dunwoody is similar to North Fulton in that it has a lot of very wealthy whites.

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Why do you feel that every block needs to consist of a wealthy black lawyer, a whitestore owner, an Asian school teacher, and an impoverished hispanic single mother?

What kind of stupid question is this? I don’t know what on earth this has to do with anything.

Sorry to be blunt, the OP asked a very valid question and raises very valid points and then you come out with this crap dismissing any desire for less racial segregation. The OP never indicated any obsessive desire to make every single block perfectly split between every different race and profession, like you are suggesting.