We CAN get mass transit going. Just look at Dallas, TX. (Atlanta: sales, credit)
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We CAN get mass transit going. Just look at Dallas, TX.
Hello everyone, I've browsed these forums from time to time. And now, as a resident from the Sandy Springs area, I'd like to begin posting here. And what other topic to kick things off than that of mass transit.
I've spent the last couple of months in Dallas, Texas, and I've watched what they've tried to do in order to manage traffic. It seems like they've got a freeway every few miles, yet they still have some of the worst traffic in America (they consistently make top-ten worst traffic cities). So they've decided to shift tactics a bit: Significantly expand their mass transit system.
Dallas' system, DART (DART.org - Dallas Area Rapid Transit), has two light-rail lines and one commuter rail line (to nearby Ft. Worth). The light-rail lines work pretty similar to MARTA's heavy rail, with the big exception that much of the tracks are built on the ground in a setup no more complex than railroad tracks: no concrete walls, no barbed-wire fence, except at bridges. And it has its own right-of-way for most of the journey, except in downtown Dallas. I've ridden on it a couple times; it's somewhat slower on average than MARTA, but that's because there are more stops along the way. At top speed the trains can exceed 60 mph.
As we speak, they are building two more light-rail lines. The first section will open in less than two months, and in less than two years both lines will be 100% operational. At the same time, a second commuter rail line is under construction from the future terminus of one of these light rail lines, to the city of Denton (which is basically Dallas' version of our Athens). So by the year 2011, Dallas will have four light rail lines and two commuter rail lines. Heck, that's up there with Boston.
Keep in mind, before I continue, that Dallas has just as bad of suburban sprawl as we do. Like Atlanta, once you get out of the downtown area, the population is VERY spread out over a wide area. But this has not been used an excuse, but rather conditions that the expansion plan needs to adapt to. Neither has its reputation of being a bureaucratic institution with little regard to what metro Dallas really needs, nor fears about safety while riding the trains, have slowed down DART's expansion.
Oh, wait, it gets better. This is part one of DART's year 2030 expansion plan. In addition to extending the four light rail lines, they plan on building two more lines, bringing the total to six. That's as many lines as the Washington, DC Metro! They'll also add some high-speed bus service.
Atlanta, don't tell me we can't do this here. Don't tell me that MARTA isn't good enough. That's bull and you know it. If Dallas can do it, then so can we. Oh, and funding? Guess how much money DART gets from the state of Texas. Zero. Nada. Only sales taxes, fare revenue, and federal funding keep it going. However, they're not constrained by that silly 50/50 capital/operational expenditures cap. Also, several counties supply them with the 1% sales tax, not just Dallas County (where the city of Dallas is).
But there is good news: Atlanta has been offered a long-term mass transit expansion plan. It's called Concept 3: http://tpb.ga.gov/Documents/121808%20-%20Project%20Info%20Booklet%20Full.pdf (broken link).
P.S.: How do I get those hyperlinks to work? Is there a post count minimum?
Last edited by toll_booth; 07-23-2009 at 07:16 PM..
Reason: trying to edit the URL entries
Atlanta, don't tell me we can't do this here. Don't tell me that MARTA isn't good enough. That's bull and you know it. If Dallas can do it, then so can we. Oh, and funding? Guess how much money DART gets from the state of Texas. Zero. Nada. Only sales taxes, fare revenue, and federal funding keep it going.
We can't do it here. Well, at least I hope we don't. Funding is the problem. If a transit service like this could exist profitably, a private company would have made it by now. I don't want my federal tax dollars going to this. I don't want to pay any additional sales tax to fund it either. It is a loser of a project that no private company was willing to touch and now the only way it will get built is if the government steps in and forces many people to pay for something they don't want through more taxes. That's great that Dallas did it without state funds, but they still used other taxation methods. If there is demand, a private company will build it without using taxpayer money. Just look at the Las Vegas monorail. It's not as large as any of these other rail projects, but it was built without a dime of taxpayer money.
Toll Booth the 1st thing is you need to want to have it. A little forward thinking instead of backwards thinking would be a place to start. But don't hold your breath on that one around here.
Lovely post. Looks like an exciting plan for this great city. I can't wait from them to build the beltline in atlanta.
Thank you.
The cool thing is, if Concept 3 is implemented, the Beltline is just a taste of what metro Atlanta will receive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by straightfromatown
We can't do it here. Well, at least I hope we don't. Funding is the problem. If a transit service like this could exist profitably, a private company would have made it by now. I don't want my federal tax dollars going to this. I don't want to pay any additional sales tax to fund it either. It is a loser of a project that no private company was willing to touch and now the only way it will get built is if the government steps in and forces many people to pay for something they don't want through more taxes. That's great that Dallas did it without state funds, but they still used other taxation methods. If there is demand, a private company will build it without using taxpayer money. Just look at the Las Vegas monorail. It's not as large as any of these other rail projects, but it was built without a dime of taxpayer money.
I'm sorry, straight, but this is the kind of defeatist attitude that metro Atlanta has got to shed. Did you see the economic benefits in the Concept 3 plan? They vastly outshadow the projected costs, even under a worst-case-scenario. Georgia is going to have to shed its phobia of taxes, even relatively mild forms such as a 1% sales tax, if it ever intends to keep up with a rapidly progressing world.
How did Dallas get the funding for all those tracks? Federal grants. If Texas wouldn't provide them with the necessary funding, then they just decided to go straight to Uncle Sam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayrob
Tool Booth the 1t thing is you have to want to have it. A little forward thinking instead of backward thinking would be a place to start.
Very true. Again, even if the decision to expand or not is made solely in terms of dollars and cents, one HAS to look at the potential economic benefits, not just the costs. That's why the farebox recovery ratio (this: Farebox recovery ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) argument is such a weak one.
Having lived in DC for a while ill be the first to say that the mass transportation system here is a joke. You could get on the metro and go pretty much anywhere without having to do any extensive walking. I didn't even take my car and never had a problem getting around. Extending to areas like Marietta, Duluth, etc would do wonders to ease traffic.
Marta does come as far as cumberland mall but only on the bus... and that trip takes forever.
While the Northern, outer Eastern stations were completed, you can see that the Northwest spur, North Druid spur, Hapeville spur, and Western expansions have never gone past that map of 18 or so years ago. When I moved here in the early 80s, it was a fairly modern system that had numerous expansion plans and projects going on. By the mid-90s it pretty much died. I have serious doubts the beltline or light rail plans will ever come to be, at least anywhere close to what you see on PDF plans right now. Maybe I'll be wrong.
You should use the "search" feature in the room to read up on the many threads that have already been done on this topic though, as you'll find numerous variations and comparisons of MARTA to other systems. etc.
I'm sorry, straight, but this is the kind of defeatist attitude that metro Atlanta has got to shed. Did you see the economic benefits in the Concept 3 plan? They vastly outshadow the projected costs, even under a worst-case-scenario. Georgia is going to have to shed its phobia of taxes, even relatively mild forms such as a 1% sales tax, if it ever intends to keep up with a rapidly progressing world.
I just read through a lot of the plan and there were some interesting additions. A lot of them look like they would be beneficial to a lot of people. But they are way too expensive. Hundreds of millions of dollars for Marta segment additions? Sure, the additions will increase Marta ridership, but not enough to cover the costs. If they would, then private investors would be all over this right now. They would loan the money to Marta to complete whichever addition they thought was most valuable and then make a nice return when Marta pays them back. They haven't invested because they know that while there would be gains, they would not be enough to offset the costs and there would be a net loss. Since these projects aren't profitable, the only way they happen is if the government steps in and pays for the loss through taxation.
Now maybe I have a defeatist attitude, but I don't want to be forced to pay for any parts of this project. The private industry modes of transportation (taxi, shuttle, my car) suit me just fine. A 1% sales tax increase means hundreds of dollars a year out of my pocket. Marta already goes everywhere I'd like, so I'd be getting nothing out of it. Even if it did take my somewhere new, I'd rather keep the hundreds in my pocket and be able to make the choice to take a cab, shuttle, or drive whenever I decide to go there.
If private investors want to build it and then charge me to ride, that's fine. It seems immoral to me though for my government to force me and other Georgians to pay for this. I hope others feel the same way, otherwise we may as well just hand all our money over to the bureaucrats who put together nice looking plans and let them decide what is best for us in life.
Agree, the Beltline will be great and add 22 miles of light rail tying into Marta, not to mention new parks (which are already being built). Marta is more comprehensive them people give it credit for. I believe there are 45 or so stops whereas Metro in D.C. has 86 and for some areas like the northeast Marta goes out a good ways but definitely extending some lines and adding light rail to tie in will make it an awesome system. We have the base so we are ahead of a lot of cities just getting started in recent years.
Portland Oregon is the light rail system that everyone studies because they have a huge network, huge ridership and started way back in the 1980's.
As for those against it, it is not just Atlanta that has people against it, every city does. Seattle just finally opened up their first light rail line and people are complaining what a waste of money etc. Over the long term rail turns out to be a great asset. Can you imagine D.C without Metro. At the time people fought hard against it. The reality is that it allows your city to grow and adds a lot of value to a city in so many ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTATL
Lovely post. Looks like an exciting plan for this great city. I can't wait from them to build the beltline in atlanta.
Now maybe I have a defeatist attitude, but I don't want to be forced to pay for any parts of this project. The private industry modes of transportation (taxi, shuttle, my car) suit me just fine. A 1% sales tax increase means hundreds of dollars a year out of my pocket. Marta already goes everywhere I'd like, so I'd be getting nothing out of it. Even if it did take my somewhere new, I'd rather keep the hundreds in my pocket and be able to make the choice to take a cab, shuttle, or drive whenever I decide to go there.
I hate to break it to you, but when you take a dump and flush it down the toilet, everyone in your municipality pays for it (if you're connected to sewer that is). My point is that everyone has an impact, everyone runs up costs to the public sector, and even you driving in a car is a cost to the public sector because roads are financed through--SURPRISE--tax dollars.
I rarely drive on Peachtree Industrial Blvd in Gwinnett, so why should I pay for it? I'll tell you--it's because it's an important corridor that connects Atlanta with several cities in Gwinnett, as well as important regional activity centers. It facilitates commerce, which employs people and generates tax revenue, which in turn may be spent to improve a transportation facility near my place of residence. You see where I'm getting at?
MARTA provides a transportation alternative that keeps some cars off the road, so they're less congested, it provides transportation for those without a car so they can get to work (and pay taxes), it shuttles tourists and visitors from the airport to important regional activity centers (generating tax revenue), and its stations provide an opportunity for redevelopment (generating additional property tax revenue). All of those benefits from just paying 1 cent on every dollar...amazing.
"I like paying taxes, with them I buy civilization." --Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr
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And what other topic to kick things off than that of mass transit.
