The Mountains of Dekalb County and Gentrification.... (Atlanta, Roswell: real estate market, foreclosures)
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The Mountains of Dekalb County and Gentrification....
I have a few questions:
1. I am aware that the Stone Mountain area is hit or miss regarding safety.. however, I would like to know what areas you would consider safe and inexpensive (below $250,000). I understand if you feel that this is an unreasonable request.. there are quite a number of diverse views on this site.. I would like to hear from those that feel that there are pockets of nice (not wealthy) but reasonably nice areas. I am particularly interested in the 30087 area and more specifically any area districted for Wynbrooke Elementary, Smoke Rise Elementary and Stephenson Middle School... I have done cursory research in these areas and would like to get feedback from others.. thank you..
2. Are there areas of the Stone Mountain area that are borderline racist against Black people? I grew up here and years ago we were afraid mainly because the stone has carvings of the Confederate leaders.. :-/
Arabia Mountain/Panola Mountain:
I do not know that much about either.. but I do wonder if either are poised to become a quality amenity for the Lithonia area...
Which leads me to my next question.. Do you think it is possible for Lithonia/Stone Mountain areas to recover?
I was driving around.. and despite the old seventies/eighties style houses that are evidencing neglect.. or poor maintenance.. I feel that these areas have such beautiful natural resources..
I just found out Stone Mountain has a lake.. and there are several lakes even around Chapel Hill....
Why do you think some people have no fear buying homes in risky neighborhoods and eventually set up camp, braving isolation and unsafe environments all while seemingly having no interest in possible gentrification? I think those who later purchase in a neighborhood like this may be motivated by profit, but the initial buyers into "unsafe" areas do not seem to be motivated by possible profit.. they seem to be blindly motivated by the amenities of cost and proximity...
How does that transition take place? Do drug dealers just move because artsy folks move in? sorry if my question is too simplistic.. I would like to know what other people think..
Here is a thread about Stone Mountain which was actually started about two years ago and has posts until this past spring. A lot of information in that thread you might could use.
As far as the race issues go, I suppose someone who lives there can speak better of it but I just did a city data search and it says the city is now about 70% black and 23% white. That's quite a difference from the days of the KKK revivals at the park.
I live in the 30087 and think that is the best of the Stone Mountain area. I have lived in the area for 10 years and while crime has increased in the area, I do not feel it is to the degree that I am constantly looking over my shoulder and feel scared for my safety in general. Wynbrooke is a Theme school and posts the highest of the test scores in Stone Mountain including Smoke Rise. I am zoned to Pine Ridge but hope I can get my child into Wynbrooke otherwise it is private school for me. If you looking for an area based on school then Stone Mountain schools in general do not have the best ranking on tests. If you are looking based on price then Stone Mountain 30087 has wonderful houses that you can get under $250,000 in well kept neighborhoods. That in part has to do with the number of foreclosures in South Dekalb. Water's Edge, Mountain Oaks, and Deer Creek, Southlands, Kanawha to name a few are nice neighborhoods. I really do not think that the people in those areas feel unsafe. It is not as if there are liquor stores on every corner in that zip and people are just hanging out on the streets. So you probably would not just ride through that area and feel as if you are in the ghetto. Improvement in Dekalb County Schools would drive people to want to move into the area. Although I like my home, I am tempted to move to a better school district. I am a little concerned about how the area will fare over the next 5 - 10 years as far as crime is concerned. It is OK for now but I am not sure it is where I want to retire.
Here is a thread about Stone Mountain which was actually started about two years ago and has posts until this past spring. A lot of information in that thread you might could use.
My head hurts.. but thank you very much for the link.. insightful to say the least.. I suppose it is best to spend more time visiting the different areas..
I also find it interesting that
=>Too many people keep chasing the next "big" subdivision and do not spend time developing their community ....instead of driving out crime.. reforming the majority of teenage knuckleheads that do..
Because honestly home burglaries in middle class homes is not big time crime.. it is a scourge on a community.. it degrades moral and institutes fear and insecurity.... for sure.... but real hoodrats.. don't waste time doing that.. as someone said.. go to south bronx.. *shudders* or other parts of northern projects.. that will frighten you so, there will be no debate about the community... what is going on in the south sounds like small time bored hooligans that need home training and something productive to do under someone they can respect... The "ghetto" seems to be plagued with unruly CHILDREN/TEENS... (sorry teens are not adults to me.. at least not in this culture... but I digress..)
At any rate that's a job for a community that cares beyond its own borders...
=> Some people have it right.. improvement can't happen if there is no honesty... Honestly it is as crazy to suggest that the entire county is ghetto as it is crazy to suggest that it is normal to have to meticulously dissect and analyze partitioned slivers and pockets of communities to decide where to live.. It is very true that for the most part Alpharetta and Roswell overwhelmingly present a "safe" feel.. just by virtue of clean streets, good schools, and limited teen loitering... that doesn't mean that there aren't problems.. it means it is not overrun with crime, bad reputation and evidence of people that present behavior (not color) that is counter to most civilized sensitibilities... that's not cool.. I think that these tendencies become part of a culture where you have a legacy of one culture in denial about the effects of centuries of belittling, murder and injustice... not to mention outright attempts at genocide and destruction .....a people can internalize these things and it become a part of who they are, constantly self defeating and in defense mode.. with no hope..:-/
Plus, I think our communities do not have as high a density of wealth as other communities and that plays a part as well.. so this also explains the pockets of wealth we see...
Quote:
As far as the race issues go, I suppose someone who lives there can speak better of it but I just did a city data search and it says the city is now about 70% black and 23% white. That's quite a difference from the days of the KKK revivals at the park.
Yes, it has taken me a minute to get used to.. Many things have changed in Georgia!.. For instance Forsyth... Sometimes I read casual discussions of increasing diversity in Forsyth County .. and that always gives me pause.. like WHY would you want to go to a place with a reputation of crime against its citizenry, throwing trash around and mobs menancingly loitering around your home?
not cool...
but I guess those things don't represent everyone, I wouldn't want to label the whole county backwards right?
I live in the 30087 and think that is the best of the Stone Mountain area. I have lived in the area for 10 years and while crime has increased in the area, I do not feel it is to the degree that I am constantly looking over my shoulder and feel scared for my safety in general. Wynbrooke is a Theme school and posts the highest of the test scores in Stone Mountain including Smoke Rise. I am zoned to Pine Ridge but hope I can get my child into Wynbrooke otherwise it is private school for me. If you looking for an area based on school then Stone Mountain schools in general do not have the best ranking on tests. If you are looking based on price then Stone Mountain 30087 has wonderful houses that you can get under $250,000 in well kept neighborhoods. That in part has to do with the number of foreclosures in South Dekalb. Water's Edge, Mountain Oaks, and Deer Creek, Southlands, Kanawha to name a few are nice neighborhoods. I really do not think that the people in those areas feel unsafe. It is not as if there are liquor stores on every corner in that zip and people are just hanging out on the streets. So you probably would not just ride through that area and feel as if you are in the ghetto. Improvement in Dekalb County Schools would drive people to want to move into the area. Although I like my home, I am tempted to move to a better school district. I am a little concerned about how the area will fare over the next 5 - 10 years as far as crime is concerned. It is OK for now but I am not sure it is where I want to retire.
Thank you very much for your answer..!!! I think that is exactly what I was looking for.. I'm going to look into the communities you have suggested..
I will take a look at those neighborhoods... I'm not worried about schools because I homeschool my children in addition to their attending school.. (I homeschooled them for 10 years before placing them in the public school...) It is my goal to place my energies into the school system.. I'm overly optimistic about the potential for every child to realize their own personal success through their unique talents and gifts... and their ability to discipline their minds to continue to grow... Most of the problems with education are not just official incompetence.. but you will find the best schools have the greatest parental involvement... It is easier to become involved when you have the money to do so.. and the time.. and have been blessed with understanding the importance of education.. so these things are not hard to implement... they will take time.. but they are not difficult..
I really have great hope for our communities.. I wish we could see the potential in our communities as others do...
Best believe in 20 years if these areas were to really become run down.. some artsy white person will fall in love with the mountains... the lakes.. and will work to make the place livable..
Right now a 2/3 bedroom with a little over 1200 sq. ft. costs over 200k. in downtown decatur... and the renovation is not all that fly either... in places used to be described as "scary"...
I wish we had that much confidence, commitment and creativity with our own communities..
I'm not sure.. but I didn't feel like this until I started reading about the different neighborhood characteristics and noticing a pattern... :-/
I would like to purchase and watch our communities blossom into places where I would like to retire.. Our people are becoming nomads... Either chasing the next better neighborhood.... being chased out of former decent neighborhoods.. or being chased by pricing out of our old neighborhoods..
Good night all.. I think I've typed too much today...
When we first decided to return to Atlanta my former Pastor's wife suggested Stone Mountain and said they have a very active homeschooling commuity. I have previosly homeschooled my kids and I am considering doing it again if we do not find schools we feel good about upon moving to Atlanta. DM me if you do decide to move to Stone Mountain and I will put you in contact with the homeschooling mom I know in Stn Mtn.
My husband's reaction when I mentioned Stn Mtn was a very strong opposition. The Stn Mtn he knew was the birthplace of the modern kkk. But the Stn Mtn of 20-30 years ago is not the Stone Mountain of today, I've learned that much from hanging out at this forum.
I wrote the story of when my husband, boyfriend at the time, took me to the Stn Mtn Laser Show previously on this board... that was my introduction to the city of Stn Mtn.
The St. Mountain of today is certainly not the St. Mountain of yesterday.
On gentrification, in metro Atlanta, gentrification has been reserved for cutesy downtowns, neighborhoods with artsy/historical type houses and other such niche areas.
We haven't seen much gentrification per se in older suburban subdivisions which is basically what St. Mountain is. In some cases, a developer comes in and buys out a whole subdivision for redevelopment and in other places, where land is very scarce, we have infill housing -- ie a 40 year old ranch being replaced with a McMansion. (Neither of which is happening in this economy.)
The long term concerns about property values in S. DeKalb are now related to the high level of foreclosures, the relatively high amount of rental properties in some subdivisions, and the relatively cheap price of land which, when the real estate market improves (and that could be a decade or more) new subdivisions will be built.
I can tell you are an optimist... but DeKalb County schools, as a system, are really among the worst in Metro Atlanta. Wynbrooke is a theme school, which as someone else wrote, requires getting lucky through a lottery. Once in, parental involvement is required as are uniforms and a ton of homework. There is now a theme middle school Champion Middle School and the new Arabia Mountain High School is basically a theme high school, though not called that. Because these schools are (or will be, Arabia Mountain opens this fall) self-selecting, they are having better than average outcomes.
I am also doing research for an upcoming move back to Atlanta. OTP suburban areas typically are not areas where gentrification has or, presumably, will take place.
As lastminutemom said, proximity and housing stock usually attracts gentrifiers. The housing stock which is desirable is often 1920s bungalows, turn-of-the-last cenyury Victorians and perhaps 1930s Cape Cods. The artsy people initially move in because they are looking for antiques to restore and renovate... down the line newly-constructed homes begin to pop up... towards the end of the bubble developers were cranking out new construction on speculation, and now these houses are sitting empty. Depending on the surrounding housing stock and the quality of the new construction, these homes may or may not be a good investment.
The drug dealers move out when a neighborhood is desirable enough for landlords to be picky and, more importantly, the majority of the housing stock is owner occupied. When the property taxes in an area raise significantly often rents are raised, causing long-term renters to be uprooted, and elderly homeowners on a fixed income are likewise often displaced.
I know of a West End real estate agent, an AA woman, who also homeschools her children. DM me for the name if you are interested in shifting your focus intown.
Housing prices are so low now that my guess is if you plan to stay 10-15 years in Stone Mountain you will likely hold it's value and you'll likely, by my guess, break even to make a small profit after 10-15 years. I would not expect any huge gains in equity over time.
If you carefully chose an Intown neighborhood, your gamble may pay off with a huge increase in the value of your home after 10-15 years. No guarantees, of course, but the odds are better in some of these areas than in most suburban area. Of course some suburban areas are desirable now and will likely continue to be desirable over time, but for a suburban OTP area to see significant increases in value in the next 10-15 years...sorry, but I don't see it. OTOH, incremental increases in value may happen OTP if the schools turn the corner and amenities are avaiable to residents.
Some first-ring suburbs in the Twin Cities are seeing some "infilling", but this is only in neighborhoods which have always been desirable areas with strong schools for decades. Therefore these areas can't hardly be labeled area were 'gentrification' is taking place, IMHO.
So if you are okay with the idea of working towards slow, incremental, changes over a relatively long period of time, Stone Mountain maybewhere you will find this... if you want to make a gamble for a possible large increase in property value, and have the heart and deire to be a true urban pioneer, then ITP will be your best bet, IMHO. But you still need to be very, very picky - for there are sure to be pockets and blocks here and there which get left behind.
Last edited by StPaulEastSider; 07-24-2009 at 08:57 AM..
"The drug dealers move out when a neighborhood is desirable enough for landlords to be picky and, more importantly, the majority of the housing stock is owner occupied. When the property taxes in an area raise significantly often rents are raised, causing long-term renters to be uprooted, and elderly homeowners on a fixed income are likewise often displaced."
This is definitely the trend with white gentrifiers.. (to raise rents and out price the previous community) but my interest is not financial it is social.. Of course I do not want to lose a large monetary investment... so the above info. is worth noting because it suggests that crime is closely tied to poverty and the standard fix thus far has been to simply outprice criminals and/or the latest trend has been to develop mixed communities... neither of which has worked... it simply reshifts poverty and crime elsewhere.. I'm optimistic that there are other solutions...
I love downtown decatur and Roswell (especially Martins Landing) and it reminds me of my previous neighborhood in Silver Spring MD... I was seriously making plans to move there almost knee jerkingly because it's what I'm used to.. I've changed my mind though..I don't think these types of communities should only exist outside of a predominately black area...
RE: Homeschooling- My children attend public school.. I continue to "homeschool" or manage their education in the morning before I go to work... I do have plans to work with the homeschooling community in the future.. thank you for the suggestion...
btw: I LOVE bungalows! just had to get that out.. the McMansions and large inefficient housing built in the new millenium are terrible.. no charm.. they all look alike.. ugh.. [rant over]
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(sorry teens are not adults to me.. at least not in this culture... but I digress..) 
