Why is Atlanta's population only 500k? (Tucker, Dallas: city hall, schools, disposal)

[waronxmas]

I don't think it should be considered a bad thing that Atlanta's population is "only" 540,000. 20 years ago, the city had a population of 394,000 and people were moving out left and right. Skip forward to today and the resident population of the city proper is up 137% and still climbing. It's actually a remarkable success story

[tdatl]

Originally Posted by reet4587

In fact, I wonder how common that is -- a major city having other cities bunched up against it like that -- and if it causes any particular problems with the governace of an urban area being divided in that way.

check out a detailed map of metro St Louis. I lived there & was stunned at how many incorporated cities there are around it. The city itself is very small, I think just over 20 square miles. It's not part of St Louis County, which surrounds it and has many dozens of towns and cities. I think there were 80-some towns/cities in a relatively small area in the metro area. You could drive a mile down a road and cross thru 3, 4, 5 distinct places. I remember reading that only Pittsburgh comes close to matching the numbers...

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I don't think it should be considered a bad thing that Atlanta's population is "only" 540,000. 20 years ago, the city had a population of 394,000 and people were moving out left and right. Skip forward to today and the resident population of the city proper is up 137% and still climbing. It's actually a remarkable success story

Yes...most of us are ecstatic that Atlanta's population is what it is - and that it's headed in the right direction.

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by tdatl

check out a detailed map of metro St Louis. I lived there & was stunned at how many incorporated cities there are around it. The city itself is very small, I think just over 20 square miles. It's not part of St Louis County, which surrounds it and has many dozens of towns and cities. I think there were 80-some towns/cities in a relatively small area in the metro area. You could drive a mile down a road and cross thru 3, 4, 5 distinct places. I remember reading that only Pittsburgh comes close to matching the numbers...

St. Louis is 66 square miles.

[tdatl]

Originally Posted by DeaconJ

St. Louis is 66 square miles.

yeah, just looked it up. Still amazing to think it had 850,000 people in that area in 1950. There were so many abandoned buildings... nice to know it's finally gaining population again, even if a tad. I think of it as smaller, more muted version of Detroit.

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by tdatl

yeah, just looked it up. Still amazing to think it had 850,000 people in that area in 1950. There were so many abandoned buildings... nice to know it's finally gaining population again, even if a tad. I think of it as smaller, more muted version of Detroit.

Yeah it's about half the size of Detroit in area, but Detroit is still 3 times the size of St. Louis in population. They've both taken a dive from being dense/vibrant cities to losing more than half their peak populations.

[south-to-west]

London is a lot like Atlanta when looking at population in that the actual City of London is extremely tiny with a population of 8,000 residents. However what the rest of the world knows as London is actually Greater London, which is basically a collection of contiguous boroughs and municipalities that function as one city as they share services and regional governance. Now the model isn't exactly the same here in Atlanta as the unincorporated areas are pretty much governed and served by their respective county.

There are a lot of urban neighborhoods with Atlanta mailing addresses that are actually in unincorporated areas such as Vinings, Toco Hills, Brookhaven, etc. When driving through neighborhoods in the heart of the city like East Atlanta and East Lake, sometimes you'll encounter sections of those neighborhoods that are actually in unincorporated areas. Virginia Highland is another example in that the area immediately across Briarcliff is unincorporated.

In the 1950s, the City of Atlanta annexed unincorporated Buckhead in order to increase the proportion of whites in the city, due to the rapidly growing black population. Because blacks were allowed to vote within the City of Atlanta since 1948, white leaders feared strengthened political power in the black community (this was the Jim Crow era after all). As part of this deal, Atlanta made an arrangement with Fulton County that it wouldn't annex anymore land--thus protecting Fulton County's property tax base (the County millage rate is lower in incorporated areas since city residents also have to pay City property taxes). Atlanta also made a similar deal with DeKalb after annexing parts of DeKalb County. So to echo many comments made on this thread, yes--it would be very difficult, if not impossible for the City to annex more land.

Another issue that complicates the matter is that Atlanta is a home rule state--meaning in part that each local and county government has a lot of leeway to organize any way they please, instead of having to have similar structure by virtue of State charter. Thus a lot of counties here in Georgia function as cities, with their own police departments (in addition to the Sheriff department which only operates jails), school districts, fire departments, and other functions that resemble incorporated cities elsewhere. This is a strong contrast to other states--especially up north--where counties have a more limited function in operating the county hospital, parks, health services, and major roads. Even in unincorporated areas up north, you have townships that fulfill the functions and responsibilities of a city on a more limited basis, rather than the county like here in Georgia.

Sorry for the long rant, but hopefully I answered some folks questions.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by aries4118

I feel a lesson in incorporated vs. unincorporated may be coming on (Saintmarks...where are you? "Those That Do Not Know" will attack soon! Need backup ...).

Thanks for the call to arms my fellow nerdy/map/statistics geek!

Great points already from several here. I especially like the statistics on total land area of the metro vs. total land area of incorporated cities. Even I did not realize the difference was so great.

My take on why this is? Georgia's abnormally small county size. I would like to see some statistics, but I am sure the average land area per county is probably the smallest out of the 50, even including tiny New England states. Georgia is second only to Texas in number of counties in about one fifth the land area of Texas.

I have read that in the 1800s, when Georgia was expanding westward to its present boundaries and counties were being carved up, the operating rule seemed to be "everyone within a days journey to the county seat." This mindset kept carving up the counties into more and more smaller counties until you get what we have today. Thus the speed of a horse drawn wagon down primitive dirt tracks is responsible for the current map we now have.

Compare a map of Georgia to neighboring Alabama. Georgia has 159 to Alabama's 67 and is only slightly larger in total land area. You could roughly put 2.5 to 3 Georgia counties into an Alabama County.

This much smaller county size for Georgia led the suburban counties around Atlanta to grow as municipalities themselves. Take Cobb County as has been mentioned. Someone in suburban Cobb County has water, sewer, police, fire, libraries, schools, etc, etc. What does one get as a benefit if he is petitioned to come into one of the cities? Trash service? More sidewalks? That is all I see as a benefit.

Even in Cobb, the annexations in the past few decades have been in primarily undeveloped areas as the developers were able to get denser zoning than the county would allow. Rarely if ever do you see established neighborhoods being annexed as it would take a majority vote of the residents in the area and once the developments are built out, most residents are happy with the status quo of the county and don't see the need of another layer of government.

Take Kennesaw for example. It has grown from around 5,000 in 1980 to over 30,000 today. The largest "new" developement in the city is Legacy Park and neighboring subdivisions on the northwest side. This was all annexed PRE development. The Pinetree subdivision to the east (the area around Kennesaw State) would be prime to be in the city, but as it was built out prior to the 80s, it has remained unincorporated Cobb. Similar annexations have taken place in Marietta, Acworth and Smyrna... all pre development. Rarely do you see established neighborhoods petition to come in.

Compare this to my current residency in McKinney, Texas. If you were to overlay a map of Dallas over Atlanta, McKinney would roughly lie on top of Cumming/Forsyth County. It has a similar growth pattern to Forsyth as well. But while Cumming has a population around 5,000, McKinney passed the 100,000 mark a couple of years back and is estimated to be at 121,000 as of 2008. Why this difference? Cumming has 5.9 square miles in its city limits, McKinney has 58.

All the suburbs surrounding Dallas have incorporated every last bit of the areas around them. A map of DFW looks like a colorful quilt, nothing like the spotted map of Atlanta surrounded by a sea of white unincorporated county. The DFW area has Arlington with over 300k, Plano, Garland, and Irving in the 200k range and Grand Prairie, Mesquite, Richardson, Carrollton, Lewisville, Frisco, Denton and McKinney over the 100k mark and more than I need to list here over the 50k mark. Atlanta has no suburbs over the 100k mark and until the recent incorporation spurt starting with Sandy Springs only had Marietta and Roswell over the 50k mark.

Why? There are only four main counties in the DFW area because of their much larger land area (other counties are in the metro area, but the vast majority of the suburban growth is in Dallas, Tarrant, Collin and Denton counties). These counties do not provide municipal services and as the areas experience suburban growth, these new developments would not have the basic municipal services (sewer, water, police, etc) if they were not annexed into the nearest city.

So, Atlanta's suburban counties act much like cities and the incorporated cities we do have, minus the recent North Fulton cities and Dunwoody, can trace their roots and much of their exisiting city limits to their pre war non suburban roots. The only ones that have been anti this trend in expanding well beyond their historical boundaries are Roswell and Alpharetta and the anti Fulton county bias that has long existed there allowed for those cities to expand their boundaries much further than most other suburban cities in the metro area.

One thing that hasn't been brought up, but in direct connection to the creation of Sandy Springs, Milton and Johns Creek in north Fulton and Chattahoochee Hills in far south Fulton, the city of Atlanta actually did annex neighborhoods in the Sandtown and Cascade areas in the southwest side of the city. This was in light of the potential city of South Fulton which would have incorporated the remaining areas in South Fulton not already inside someone's city limits. There was a grass roots push in these neighborhoods to join Atlanta rather than face the unchartered waters of a city of South Fulton. Union City, Fairburn and Palmetto also annexed some sizable areas prior to this. The city of South Fulton was the only one to get the thumbs down from voters. This was Atlanta's first annexation since the 50s, wasn't a huge annexation, but an annexation still.

Recent votes in Decatur and Doraville for sizable annexations have been turned down. Chamblee has also proposed some large annexations but a google search hasn't yielded much happening on that scene. Gwinnett cities have expanded only on a small scale in light of the explosive growth in that county in the last few decades. Clayton cities have not grabbed much land over the years. Douglasville, Woodstock and Canton are the only ones that come to mind that have significantly altered their footprints in the last several years.

By far the biggest change has been the Fulton cities' births and that seems to be unique to the odd shape of Fulton and even odder pattern of the county government there. This attitude seems to have spilled over into DeKalb with the formation of Dunwoody. There have been murmurings that Tucker might follow suit and incorporate.

The DC area is much like Atlanta. Washington in both population and land area is small compared to the larger metro population. Surrounding suburban areas of Maryland and Virginia are largely unincorporated.

OK Aries, how's that? Rambling and long, but my filling in the gaps that haven't been brought up in the thread up to this point.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by 10scoachrick

.[/u]
[/i]


Who Knew??? Bet a bunch of folks working/living in Tucker sure thought they were in a city.

I've lived in Tucker for 30 years and I've never met anyone who thinks they live in the "City of Tucker".

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

Thanks for the call to arms my fellow nerdy/map/statistics geek!

Great points already from several here. I especially like the statistics on total land area of the metro vs. total land area of incorporated cities. Even I did not realize the difference was so great.

My take on why this is? Georgia's abnormally small county size. I would like to see some statistics, but I am sure the average land area per county is probably the smallest out of the 50, even including tiny New England states. Georgia is second only to Texas in number of counties in about one fifth the land area of Texas.

I have read that in the 1800s, when Georgia was expanding westward to its present boundaries and counties were being carved up, the operating rule seemed to be "everyone within a days journey to the county seat." This mindset kept carving up the counties into more and more smaller counties until you get what we have today. Thus the speed of a horse drawn wagon down primitive dirt tracks is responsible for the current map we now have.

Compare a map of Georgia to neighboring Alabama. Georgia has 159 to Alabama's 67 and is only slightly larger in total land area. You could roughly put 2.5 to 3 Georgia counties into an Alabama County.

This much smaller county size for Georgia led the suburban counties around Atlanta to grow as municipalities themselves. Take Cobb County as has been mentioned. Someone in suburban Cobb County has water, sewer, police, fire, libraries, schools, etc, etc. What does one get as a benefit if he is petitioned to come into one of the cities? Trash service? More sidewalks? That is all I see as a benefit.

Even in Cobb, the annexations in the past few decades have been in primarily undeveloped areas as the developers were able to get denser zoning than the county would allow. Rarely if ever do you see established neighborhoods being annexed as it would take a majority vote of the residents in the area and once the developments are built out, most residents are happy with the status quo of the county and don't see the need of another layer of government.

Take Kennesaw for example. It has grown from around 5,000 in 1980 to over 30,000 today. The largest "new" developement in the city is Legacy Park and neighboring subdivisions on the northwest side. This was all annexed PRE development. The Pinetree subdivision to the east (the area around Kennesaw State) would be prime to be in the city, but as it was built out prior to the 80s, it has remained unincorporated Cobb. Similar annexations have taken place in Marietta, Acworth and Smyrna... all pre development. Rarely do you see established neighborhoods petition to come in.

Compare this to my current residency in McKinney, Texas. If you were to overlay a map of Dallas over Atlanta, McKinney would roughly lie on top of Cumming/Forsyth County. It has a similar growth pattern to Forsyth as well. But while Cumming has a population around 5,000, McKinney passed the 100,000 mark a couple of years back and is estimated to be at 121,000 as of 2008. Why this difference? Cumming has 5.9 square miles in its city limits, McKinney has 58.

All the suburbs surrounding Dallas have incorporated every last bit of the areas around them. A map of DFW looks like a colorful quilt, nothing like the spotted map of Atlanta surrounded by a sea of white unincorporated county. The DFW area has Arlington with over 300k, Plano, Garland, and Irving in the 200k range and Grand Prairie, Mesquite, Richardson, Carrollton, Lewisville, Frisco, Denton and McKinney over the 100k mark and more than I need to list here over the 50k mark. Atlanta has no suburbs over the 100k mark and until the recent incorporation spurt starting with Sandy Springs only had Marietta and Roswell over the 50k mark.

Why? There are only four main counties in the DFW area because of their much larger land area (other counties are in the metro area, but the vast majority of the suburban growth is in Dallas, Tarrant, Collin and Denton counties). These counties do not provide municipal services and as the areas experience suburban growth, these new developments would not have the basic municipal services (sewer, water, police, etc) if they were not annexed into the nearest city.

So, Atlanta's suburban counties act much like cities and the incorporated cities we do have, minus the recent North Fulton cities and Dunwoody, can trace their roots and much of their exisiting city limits to their pre war non suburban roots. The only ones that have been anti this trend in expanding well beyond their historical boundaries are Roswell and Alpharetta and the anti Fulton county bias that has long existed there allowed for those cities to expand their boundaries much further than most other suburban cities in the metro area.

One thing that hasn't been brought up, but in direct connection to the creation of Sandy Springs, Milton and Johns Creek in north Fulton and Chattahoochee Hills in far south Fulton, the city of Atlanta actually did annex neighborhoods in the Sandtown and Cascade areas in the southwest side of the city. This was in light of the potential city of South Fulton which would have incorporated the remaining areas in South Fulton not already inside someone's city limits. There was a grass roots push in these neighborhoods to join Atlanta rather than face the unchartered waters of a city of South Fulton. Union City, Fairburn and Palmetto also annexed some sizable areas prior to this. The city of South Fulton was the only one to get the thumbs down from voters. This was Atlanta's first annexation since the 50s, wasn't a huge annexation, but an annexation still.

Recent votes in Decatur and Doraville for sizable annexations have been turned down. Chamblee has also proposed some large annexations but a google search hasn't yielded much happening on that scene. Gwinnett cities have expanded only on a small scale in light of the explosive growth in that county in the last few decades. Clayton cities have not grabbed much land over the years. Douglasville, Woodstock and Canton are the only ones that come to mind that have significantly altered their footprints in the last several years.

By far the biggest change has been the Fulton cities' births and that seems to be unique to the odd shape of Fulton and even odder pattern of the county government there. This attitude seems to have spilled over into DeKalb with the formation of Dunwoody. There have been murmurings that Tucker might follow suit and incorporate.

The DC area is much like Atlanta. Washington in both population and land area is small compared to the larger metro population. Surrounding suburban areas of Maryland and Virginia are largely unincorporated.

OK Aries, how's that? Rambling and long, but my filling in the gaps that haven't been brought up in the thread up to this point.

Awesome.