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I like the idea of staying with the same teacher all through compulsory education. That makes perfectly good sense, and I can see how it would eliminate the need for testing. The teacher knows the child, and almost as importantly, the parent knows the teacher. I also like the idea of testing for secondary education. I really think this is one of the reasons the American system compares so unfavorably to other countries. Only their top tier kids make it into secondary education. In the US system we have to account for everybody whether they want to be there, or are even capable of being there or not. I like the idea of a two-track system. I'm also in favor of eliminating sports teams and such. Actually I'm in favor of that even without a switch over to another system. Of course PE, music and art would be retained.
As someone else mentioned, those countries are extremely homogeneous (or were until recently), and certainly don't have the issues of poverty and it's related issues that we do.
@RRD, I'm not complaining that the summer break is to short. I'm complaining that returning to school in the hottest part of the school year is crazy. It is significantly hotter in the south in August than it is in May or June. To my mind it makes more sense from a cost standpoint to continue school during the cooler months when it costs less to run air conditioning. Certainly my power bill is higher in August than it is in May/June. Presumably everyone else's is as well.
Rosalyn, the thinking is that the high school kids forget too much over winter break so they can't possibly be tested in January on material that they learned in the fall. IMO, if they can't retain it for two weeks and test on it after a couple of days/weeks back at school in January to study.. they haven't learned it at all.
I always had finals and term papers due at the semester end in January. Not a problem at all. I was happy to have a couple of weeks without classes so I could work on my term papers and study for finals. Of course, public schools are stuck teaching a bunch of kids who would never consider studying over a break and the whole darn state system has to alter itself so that it can create the illusion that these knuckleheads are learning something.
In the Northeast, they somehow manage to have the semester end in January and, by and large, have far better results than we do here it the South. The only conclusion that you can come to is that we are just too dumb in the South to make that work. Looking at how our state government is run, I think it must be true.
But that's what GA is all about.... doing everything possible to make it LOOK like stupid kids are learning when in fact, they are just regurgitating.
Rosalyn, the thinking is that the high school kids forget too much over winter break so they can't possibly be tested in January on material that they learned in the fall.
I don't know what you mean by "the thinking" since I'm the poster who brought up this topic, but that's certainly not my thinking. You seem to be setting up a straw man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frances125
IMO, if they can't retain it for two weeks and test on it after a couple of days/weeks back at school in January to study.. they haven't learned it at all.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frances125
I always had finals and term papers due at the semester end in January. Not a problem at all. I was happy to have a couple of weeks without classes so I could work on my term papers and study for finals.
Certainly, we're not all alike. Although you enjoyed the opportunity to spend your vacation studying, I never did, and I think it's undesirable. To my mind, vacation time should provide a change and a rest from school. Hence my opinion that end-of-term immediately before the vacation is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frances125
Of course, public schools are stuck teaching a bunch of kids who would never consider studying over a break and the whole darn state system has to alter itself so that it can create the illusion that these knuckleheads are learning something.
In the Northeast, they somehow manage to have the semester end in January and, by and large, have far better results than we do here it the South. The only conclusion that you can come to is that we are just too dumb in the South to make that work. Looking at how our state government is run, I think it must be true.
But that's what GA is all about.... doing everything possible to make it LOOK like stupid kids are learning when in fact, they are just regurgitating.
In the Northeast, they have different demographics. You seem to despise the southern underclass. What are your ideas for educating poor, "stupid" kids?
** If we cut out some of the bulk from the budget, like the Nordic countries did, and stop thinking that money/excessive spending is the only key to success. . .this may help eliminate most of our problems.
The Nordic countries have highly progressive tax systems, generous parental leaves, and public provided daycare and preschool until the child goes to school. Basically they tax the heck out of high income earners and thereby put every child in something close to a middle-class home, and in high quality public childcare. When this very homogeneous population (by comparison with the US) gets to school, not surprisingly, it can be educated using a fairly uniform one-classroom-fits-all approach, that's less expensive than US education.
I'm not saying the US can't learn anything from looking at Finnish schools, but I think the significant difference between Finnish and US school outcomes is not because of the schools, it's because of the whole society. Comparing only the schools and saying "gosh, the Finns do it better by spending less" completely misses the big picture.
Here in the US, we don't really have a problem educating the middle-class-and-above kids. They're pretty much doing fine, whether at private school or our numerous public schools that are "great schools" by virtue of being packed with middle-class kids from ambitious families, in areas like North Fulton, East Cobb, et al. Schools like Walton don't need to change anything to compete with the Finns - they're probably already competitive. On the other hand, our schools that are trying to educate our less advantaged populations, face different and bigger challenges than do Finnish schools, and the Finnish model may not address their problems.
Last edited by RainyRainyDay; 03-02-2010 at 02:58 PM..
Reason: Oops, original version had "paternity" where I meant "parental" leave.
I'm not saying the US can't learn anything from looking at Finnish schools, but I think the significant difference between Finnish and US school outcomes is not because of the schools, it's because of the whole society. Comparing only the schools and saying "gosh, the Finns do it better by spending less" completely misses the big picture.
Precisely. And most Americans would be unwilling to adapt the Finnish model in it's entirety because it would require changing our entire social structure, not to mention our tax system. It would never get through our Congress and that would be the end of that.
I don't know what you mean by "the thinking" since I'm the poster who brought up this topic, but that's certainly not my thinking. You seem to be setting up a straw man.
I agree.
Certainly, we're not all alike. Although you enjoyed the opportunity to spend your vacation studying, I never did, and I think it's undesirable. To my mind, vacation time should provide a change and a rest from school. Hence my opinion that end-of-term immediately before the vacation is better.
In the Northeast, they have different demographics. You seem to despise the southern underclass. What are your ideas for educating poor, "stupid" kids?
The Nordic countries have highly progressive tax systems, generous paternity leaves, and public provided daycare and preschool until the child goes to school. Basically they tax the heck out of high income earners and thereby put every child in something close to a middle-class home, and in high quality public childcare. When this very homogeneous population (by comparison with the US) gets to school, not surprisingly, it can be educated using a fairly uniform one-classroom-fits-all approach, that's less expensive than US education.
I'm not saying the US can't learn anything from looking at Finnish schools, but I think the significant difference between Finnish and US school outcomes is not because of the schools, it's because of the whole society. Comparing only the schools and saying "gosh, the Finns do it better by spending less" completely misses the big picture.
Here in the US, we don't really have a problem educating the middle-class-and-above kids. They're pretty much doing fine, whether at private school or our numerous public schools that are "great schools" by virtue of being packed with middle-class kids from ambitious families, in areas like North Fulton, East Cobb, et al. Schools like Walton don't need to change anything to compete with the Finns - they're probably already competitive. On the other hand, our schools that are trying to educate our less advantaged populations, face different and bigger challenges than do Finnish schools, and the Finnish model may not address their problems.
The Nordic countries have highly progressive tax systems, generous paternity leaves, and public provided daycare and preschool until the child goes to school. Basically they tax the heck out of high income earners and thereby put every child in something close to a middle-class home, and in high quality public childcare. When this very homogeneous population (by comparison with the US) gets to school, not surprisingly, it can be educated using a fairly uniform one-classroom-fits-all approach, that's less expensive than US education.
I'm not saying the US can't learn anything from looking at Finnish schools, but I think the significant difference between Finnish and US school outcomes is not because of the schools, it's because of the whole society. Comparing only the schools and saying "gosh, the Finns do it better by spending less" completely misses the big picture.
Here in the US, we don't really have a problem educating the middle-class-and-above kids. They're pretty much doing fine, whether at private school or our numerous public schools that are "great schools" by virtue of being packed with middle-class kids from ambitious families, in areas like North Fulton, East Cobb, et al. Schools like Walton don't need to change anything to compete with the Finns - they're probably already competitive. On the other hand, our schools that are trying to educate our less advantaged populations, face different and bigger challenges than do Finnish schools, and the Finnish model may not address their problems.
I agree. The "bulk" that I was talking about is the extracurricular stuff. I do not believe that we need to spend as much as we do to reach our students.
I understand that our societies are different.. . that's why mentioned that we would have to change the way US Americans think before we can successfully transition to a similar set-up as the Nordic countries. We are not them, but we can definitely learn a lot from what they've done. One thing we should look into is the benefit of addressing "learning styles". Here is an article that I found interesting: http://www.viriya.net/samuels/2009_Spring_EDD_631/Dunn_1990.pdf (broken link)
I am not very familiar with the E. Cobb schools and how they rank internationally. . .all I know is that the students who represented the US did not perform as well as they should have. I'm not capable of debating this subject with you but there appears to be many professionals here in the US who believe that our students are indeed getting dumber. . and that public education is being dumbed down. But maybe I've been persuaded by the words of Charlotte Iserbyt and John Gatto.
Anyway, the point of my initial post was to answer Roslynn's question regarding the Nordic/Finnish educational system. I know we cannot be them, but we can definitely learn a lot from them. And personally, I would start by cutting out extracurricular activities before raising taxes or cut schools days/pay. And after that, I would vote for a changing how children are educated and the duration of their educations. I like the idea of the "upper-secondary" schooling.
And I wanted to add that I would remove all of those useless/irresponsible individuals who proclaim to be administrators of education. . . and if I had a county to begin this process in, it would be Dekalb.
Last edited by SleeplessnATL; 03-02-2010 at 03:33 PM..
Reason: additional opinion
In the Northeast, they have different demographics. You seem to despise the southern underclass. What are your ideas for educating poor, "stupid" kids?
My post was sarcastic. That didn't come across very well. I don't think that the demographics of the Northeast are very different from what we have here. Maybe racially, but not socioeconomically. I am one who believes that any child can achieve regardless of race. I don't think that brains were handed out to only one race or culture. I don't look at race ... I look at socio-economics.
To the contrary, I personally think that we could achieve just as well as any Northeast school using their typical school calendar. I don't think we need any sort of special calendar to make learning "easier" for us. In contrast, I think that our educational and political leaders do think that we are more stupid than Northeasterners. This is why they do silly things like pay for air conditioning in the hottest month of the year so that kids don't have to try to actually retain material for a couple of weeks.
No, I do not despise the Southern underclass. Again, my post came across wrong - I intended sarcasm. I'm not too fond of lazy people.. but from my experience ... they exist in every class.
We differ on the studying over winter break issue. No biggie. It sure would save money and create revenue to have a more generous summer break and have everyone on the same calendar with a reasonable start date though. From what I read in the news every year.. it would also very likely save lives.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay
In the Northeast, they have different demographics. You seem to despise the southern underclass. What are your ideas for educating poor, "stupid" kids?
Make it interesting and meaningful?
I suspect many kids don't see the point in going to school if they need to work or do other things to bring food home, etc., so maybe cash prizes or some other incentive for attending and doing well is an idea. Though I guess the HOPE scholarship plays that role in some ways.
Maybe some sort of incentive program for parents to act like parents?
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