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Old 06-03-2010, 12:48 PM
 
Location: ITL (Houston)
9,223 posts, read 13,523,783 times
Reputation: 3545

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I missed this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
By the way yes Texas land plot average sizes are denser, but in the links NO, not even close. That was a Atlanta New Urbanist project and the average Texas suburban land plot is MUCH larger, which is why I posted the Texas links. And I know this because I stayed there in DFW several times trust me. So don't boast, red flag. And for no connectivity to its surrounding area it's not done being bulit. Infact I knowingly post a New Urban project because it was not in grid, LMAO
It's because you posted three completely different things. You picked out the "New Urbanism" project in Atlanta, but then try to link far out suburbs in both areas to compare. You posted Arlington, Texas, in an area that grew because of the GM Plant there (working class area).

On average, home lot sizes in suburban Houston/Dallas are smaller than those in Atlanta. What you posted, for Atlanta, is not the norm. Houston and Dallas have similar communities, about as far away from their core as the one you posted for Atlanta:

Houston - Google Maps

Dallas - Google Maps

Quote:
Most NY and SF streets are not wide. and LA doesn't have a rep for walkable. Also let me say this to prevent a misconception just in case. I didn't say Atlanta is completely walkable, I said has potential to be walkable in way Dallas and Houston can’t.
Have you been to LA? LA may not have a rep for a strong rail system (yet), but LA is a VERY walkable city. The streets are actually pretty packed. And yes, NYC and SF have wide streets. Have you seen Times Square or Market Square?

Quote:
Ok to keep everything in sense

Dallas
Freeways
There’s main roads
There’s the back roads or neighborhood

Atlanta
Freeways
There’s main roads ( most of these are Georgia state highways, roads are more common in GA to have title of Hwy and own by the state than Texas.
There’s the back roads or neighborhood

So to say "The only straight shots are either US or Georgia State highways" then say “Stop thinking of Georgia highways as freeways? I never thought that. I know they are roads.” and then “What I'm saying is that Atlanta doesn't have many crosstown roads” is contradiction yourself.
What the hell? How is that contradicting myself?

Quote:
But in answering your question, lead me to a question, Which side do you want?

Atlanta city limit is small and Metro Atlanta does have a web freeways system. but what trip me out the author compare Atlanta to Indianapolis and Columbus is just throw, thank you for pointing out another flaw in this acticle. The author is on a roll, ROFL

Atlanta - Google Maps

Columbus - Google Maps

Indianapolis - Google Maps
You proved the authors point. Those freeway systems in Indy and Columbus are the same as Atlanta, for the most part. They actually look pretty similar. Now, compare Atlanta's to Houston and Dallas:

Houston - Google Maps

Dallas - Google Maps

Looking at that, Atlanta is much more similar to Columbus' and Indy's system than Houston's and Dallas'. Also, the leaders in Houston/Dallas, long ago, set land aside for these freeways and future ones. So, when people say "in Atlanta, we don't like to plow over our landscape", its because the region leaders didn't lay this land aside.

Quote:
Again Metro Atlanta is developing more live walk play areas then Dallas and Houston, I not saying there not. The ARC place more cards on this for a reason. The state would have little financing and support for Atlanta as for transportation, the Atlanta vs. Georgia mentality. So rather then doing nothing the whole time the focus has been harder on live work play areas, and trying to decrease the necessary of distance commuting. As in stop separating residential and commercial area in the first place.
I agree with this actually. Atlanta builds more of these developments. Probably because of the topography. In Houston/Dallas, they build plenty of these developments, too, but there are more "smaller" developments sprinkled around the core than in Atlanta, I'd say.

Quote:
No, Fulton county alone grew 30,000 last year while the hold 28 county metro area grew 80,000. less sprawling you mean.
No? Less sprawling I mean? I said the core started growing by the same percentage as the suburbs. If you don't see that as a good thing/positive thing I said about Atlanta, then I don't know what to tell you. Especially when the suburbs' percentage growth was doubling that of the core earlier in the decade.

Nice developments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Ok apply that to this, Hitler was consider a good dresser Churchill was consider awful, who do you think was the nicer person. That's call the Ad hominem fallacy or arguing against the person and not the premise.
That's not the same thing. It doesn't matter who the nicer person was (that's not what we were arguing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue View Post
Wow! Three of those rankings really blew me away…

1) The ranking for Jobs (the percentage of Professional & Managerial jobs)
2) The ranking for College attainment (percentage of people 25 or older with college degrees)
3) The Poverty Rates

After looking at those rankings I am shocked and amazed at how blue collar the metros of Houston and Dallas are, especially compared to Atlanta. I had no idea the differences were that steep, and I used to live in Dallas and Atlanta. I used to think Charlotte was more like a smaller version of Dallas than Atlanta, but even Charlotte outranks those two in the areas above.
Yeah, Houston and Dallas have more blue-collar workers, though Dallas less. The reason Houston has more is because of the port. But, having said that, the differences really aren't that big (for income, jobs, etc.). About as big of a difference as the jobless rate between Houston/Dallas and Atlanta. And I would have never called Charlotte a mini-Dallas. Charlotte has always been a mini-Atlanta, to me.
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,732 posts, read 11,835,265 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface713 View Post
Looking at that, Atlanta is much more similar to Columbus' and Indy's system than Houston's and Dallas'. Also, the leaders in Houston/Dallas, long ago, set land aside for these freeways and future ones. So, when people say "in Atlanta, we don't like to plow over our landscape", its because the region leaders didn't lay this land aside.
Sorry, but no. Atlanta's leaders DID lay land aside. There was I-485, the Stone Mountain Freeway, Ga 400, the Outer Perimeter and a connector between the Langford Pkwy & I-20.

I-485 and the Stone Mountain Freeway were set to tear through the heart of the City, through some of our most beautiful neighborhoods. That is where the grannies chained themselves to the trees.

Out of all of these proposals, only one got built - the extension of Ga 400 inside the Perimeter. And the ONLY reason it was built was the negotiated compromise with Buckhead to run MARTA up the median.

All of the others were cancelled due to public outcry, and various lawsuits filed by the Sierra Club and other environmentalists.

It pays to know a little of our local history before you speak with such authority.
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: ITL (Houston)
9,223 posts, read 13,523,783 times
Reputation: 3545
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnatl View Post
Sorry, but no. Atlanta's leaders DID lay land aside. There was I-485, the Stone Mountain Freeway, Ga 400, the Outer Perimeter and a connector between the Langford Pkwy & I-20.

I-485 and the Stone Mountain Freeway were set to tear through the heart of the City, through some of our most beautiful neighborhoods. That is where the grannies chained themselves to the trees.

Out of all of these proposals, only one got built - the extension of Ga 400 inside the Perimeter. And the ONLY reason it was built was the negotiated compromise with Buckhead to run MARTA up the median.

All of the others were cancelled due to public outcry, and various lawsuits filed by the Sierra Club and other environmentalists.
So, they set land aside, yet it was going to plow through neighborhoods? You sure the city leaders didn't just propose a freeway that was going to plow through neighborhoods? See, when Houston set land aside for Beltway 8, or Dallas set let aside for Highway 161, the neighborhoods/development backed up to the frontage roads, or where the freeway was going to be put. Then the freeways came. Also, there have been some freeways canceled for the same reasons you list for Atlanta. Highway 225, in Houston, was suppose to connect from it's current end at 610 to Downtown Houston. East End residents said hell no.

Edit: The only time this wasn't true in the Texas cities were when freeways were first getting started and neighborhoods got cut in half.

Quote:
It pays to know a little of our local history before you speak with such authority.
This can go both ways.

Last edited by Trae713; 06-03-2010 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Atlanta ,GA
9,086 posts, read 12,937,489 times
Reputation: 2908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue View Post
Wow! Three of those rankings really blew me away…

1) The ranking for Jobs (the percentage of Professional & Managerial jobs)
2) The ranking for College attainment (percentage of people 25 or older with college degrees)
3) The Poverty Rates

After looking at those rankings I am shocked and amazed at how blue collar the metros of Houston and Dallas are, especially compared to Atlanta. I had no idea the differences were that steep, and I used to live in Dallas and Atlanta. I used to think Charlotte was more like a smaller version of Dallas than Atlanta, but even Charlotte outranks those two in the areas above.
Well I hate to say it but its true.Minorities lag behind in educational attainment and per capita incomes.Texas has a lot people from Central America.These are immigrant just starting there "American Dream".We know its a fact that wealth and success is owed a lot to being generational.
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Atlanta ,GA
9,086 posts, read 12,937,489 times
Reputation: 2908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface713 View Post
If you were watching a debate, and one person just mumbled and ran their words together, but the other person spoke clearly and with proper annunciation, who would you believe? Especially on a topic that is highly opinionated like this one?

I don't make fun of how people type on here though, because English may not even be their native tongue. Hell if I know. It's just the internet anyway, but still.
I don't type.I admit,Its my weakness.Not embarrassed at all.However I do know how to speak.If I could I would pay someone to type for me.

I don't believe that what I right is so indistinguishable that it could be considered "mumbeling" as you put it.That said I would have common enough sense to know when someone is avoiding a question a facts because they are enamoured with their own thoughts and feelings to see what is right is wrong.There is more ways than bad typing or even grammar to discredit what someone is saying.Part of it is by providing sources.Most of your talk on here is out of your own head.

You mentioned earlier about Houston having more medical students.Where did you find that?I think its incorrect..Plus if you look up number of Medical Schools in Houston,its less than those in Atlanta.
Atlanta Med.schools:Morehouse School of Medicine,Emory Univ. and Philadelphia School of Osteopathic Medicine.

Houston:Baylor School of Medicine ,U of Texas Medical School at Houston

As far as institutions.The TMC is basically the majority of Houston hospitals in one area of town.Its much easier to know how many people exactly are visiting when its in ONE place instead of scattered around town.I know that its true that TMC has more international visitors but where is it that it says the percentage of the medical industry of Houston's economy vs that of Atlanta's?

OH MY BAD.Maybe I should type in BOLD FACE TYPING and use the Queen's English so YOU can understand me better?

Last edited by afonega1; 06-03-2010 at 11:02 PM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:36 PM
 
180 posts, read 444,473 times
Reputation: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Ok apply that to this, Hitler was consider a good dresser Churchill was consider awful, who do you think was the nicer person. That's call the Ad hominem fallacy or arguing against the person and not the premise.
LOL, terrific point. I actually have grown up enough where I generally mistrust the too-fluent speaker. I believe there is a word for this and it is "glib".

But it's the American (and maybe the human) way, to favor style over substance.
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Old 06-03-2010, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Atlanta ,GA
9,086 posts, read 12,937,489 times
Reputation: 2908
Quote:
Originally Posted by whynot1986 View Post
LOL, terrific point. I actually have grown up enough where I generally mistrust the too-fluent speaker. I believe there is a word for this and it is "glib".

But it's the American (and maybe the human) way, to favor style over substance.
My point exactly.
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Old 06-04-2010, 06:34 AM
 
Location: ITL (Houston)
9,223 posts, read 13,523,783 times
Reputation: 3545
Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
I don't type.I admit,Its my weakness.Not embarrassed at all.However I do know how to speak.If I could I would pay someone to type for me.

I don't believe that what I right is so indistinguishable that it could be considered "mumbeling" as you put it.That said I would have common enough sense to know when someone is avoiding a question a facts because they are enamoured with their own thoughts and feelings to see what is right is wrong.There is more ways than bad typing or even grammar to discredit what someone is saying.Part of it is by providing sources.Most of your talk on here is out of your own head.
I never even made fun of your typing. Go back and look. What you type isn't unreadable, but it is hard to read at times. I think YOU get so enamored in what you're saying, that your grammar becomes an afterthought. You just "type, type, type" and don't check it.

Quote:
You mentioned earlier about Houston having more medical students.Where did you find that?I think its incorrect..Plus if you look up number of Medical Schools in Houston,its less than those in Atlanta.
Atlanta Med.schools:Morehouse School of Medicine,Emory Univ. and Philadelphia School of Osteopathic Medicine.

Houston:Baylor School of Medicine ,U of Texas Medical School at Houston
In Houston, you have: List of Texas Medical Center institutions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the TMC alone, you have more medical educational institutions than the entire Atlanta metro area. There are also medical schools down in the Galveston area. There is even a high school in the TMC devoted to the medical profession (DeBakey High School for Health Professions). In total, there are about 69,000 students in the TMC alone, with over 5,000 of those from overseas (in addition to the 80,000 employees in the TMC). If Atlanta has more than that, then props to Atlanta.

Quote:
As far as institutions.The TMC is basically the majority of Houston hospitals in one area of town.Its much easier to know how many people exactly are visiting when its in ONE place instead of scattered around town.I know that its true that TMC has more international visitors but where is it that it says the percentage of the medical industry of Houston's economy vs that of Atlanta's?
No, it isn't and that's not even close. The TMC only has about 13 hospitals out of the 27 in the City of Houston. The metro area has even more. There are a bunch of "tiny" medical centers sprinkled around the city and metro area. This is a common misconception by people, who think just because the TMC is so large, that that's the only area where Houston has its hospitals. The majority of the TMC aren't even hospitals, but educational/research institutions.

Quote:
OH MY BAD.Maybe I should type in BOLD FACE TYPING and use the Queen's English so YOU can understand me better?
Did you miss this part of my post:

I don't make fun of how people type on here though, because English may not even be their native tongue. Hell if I know. It's just the internet anyway, but still.

I wasn't bashing anyone.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by whynot1986 View Post
LOL, terrific point. I actually have grown up enough where I generally mistrust the too-fluent speaker. I believe there is a word for this and it is "glib".

But it's the American (and maybe the human) way, to favor style over substance.
This is also true, but substance here isn't lacking.

Last edited by Trae713; 06-04-2010 at 07:27 AM..
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:47 AM
 
4,305 posts, read 4,173,345 times
Reputation: 3281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface713 View Post
I missed this post:

It's because you posted three completely different things. You picked out the "New Urbanism" project in Atlanta, but then try to link far out suburbs in both areas to compare. You posted Arlington, Texas, in an area that grew because of the GM Plant there (working class area).

Because you compared the Atlanta picture to a Dallas and Houston suburb, and even said wasn‘t, mean while it was new urbanist project.
Actually I stayed in Arlington before and even graduated from Lamar high out there. I know a lot about the area, and Arlington is one DFW biggest and densest suburbs in addition to being in between Dallas and Ft Worth. so I choose Arlington for that reason.

The affirmative was your argument that without a grid their can’t be density, therefore Atlanta has bad infrastructure for growth. I took the negative and post a new urbanist project purposely because it wasn’t a grid. Then all sudden you said it look like the average Dallas and Houston suburb, nor was the picture dense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface713 View Post
Okay? There are plenty of developments like these in Houston and Dallas. Also, I wouldn't say that what you posted is dense. Most suburban communities in Houston and Dallas are built like that (with how close the homes are to each other).
So I went back and post Dallas and Houston suburbs to put on blast the size on Dallas and Houston suburban land lot, then remind you that in the Atlanta picture most of the homes had no yards.
Quote:
On average, home lot sizes in suburban Houston/Dallas are smaller than those in Atlanta. What you posted, for Atlanta, is not the norm. Houston and Dallas have similar communities, about as far away from their core as the one you posted for Atlanta:

Houston - Google Maps

Dallas - Google Maps
I know that why I said,
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
By the way yes Texas land plot average sizes are denser, but in the links NO, not even close. That was a Atlanta New Urbanist project and the average Texas suburban land plot is MUCH larger, which is why I posted the Texas links. And I know this because I stayed there in DFW several times trust me. So don't boast, red flag. And for no connectivity to its surrounding area it's not done being bulit. Infact I knowingly post a New Urban project because it was not in grid, LMAO

Atlanta - Google Maps

looks like Dallas and Houston suburbs
I was pointing out that you were boasting, Originally I post the Atlanta Google map links to show density not in a grid, and what the other areas that are not in grid around Atlanta could be. I wasn’t comparing it to Dallas and Houston suburbs you did, so I start to do it too.

Quote:
Have you been to LA? LA may not have a rep for a strong rail system (yet), but LA is a VERY walkable city. The streets are actually pretty packed. And yes, NYC and SF have wide streets. Have you seen Times Square or Market Square?
Yes I have been to LA, and I said LA doesn't have a rep for being walkable and I wan't talking about rail. And most of NYC and SF streets are not wide.

Quote:
What the hell? How is that contradicting myself?
Because your saying Atlanta doesn't have many crosstown roads then say that you do know GA Highway aren’t freeway, while saying "The only straight shots are either US or Georgia State highways" I don’t think you understand that state highways are more common in GA than Texas. And serve a different used like the GA counties have a different use than Texas.

Quote:
You proved the authors point. Those freeway systems in Indy and Columbus are the same as Atlanta, for the most part. They actually look pretty similar. Now, compare Atlanta's to Houston and Dallas:

Houston - Google Maps

Dallas - Google Maps

Looking at that, Atlanta is much more similar to Columbus' and Indy's system than Houston's and Dallas'. Also, the leaders in Houston/Dallas, long ago, set land aside for these freeways and future ones. So, when people say "in Atlanta, we don't like to plow over our landscape", its because the region leaders didn't lay this land aside.
No Atlanta's loop is larger and has more highways spiraling to and from Atlanta, And not to mention the inscribable difference in the amount of roadways compare to Columbus and Indy. Dallas is in a Metroplex with Fort Worth that what your looking at. Houston has multiple loops, while in Atlanta most of the freeways come together to form the DT connector.

Urban planner actually thought about a outer loop and even a Northern Arc. The reason why they were cancelled is because many planners thought it would create more sprawl.

Outer Perimeter

Quote:
No? Less sprawling I mean? I said the core started growing by the same percentage as the suburbs. If you don't see that as a good thing/positive thing I said about Atlanta, then I don't know what to tell you. Especially when the suburbs' percentage growth was doubling that of the core earlier in the decade.
That's because they're smaller, what about raw numbers?

Quote:
That's not the same thing. It doesn't matter who the nicer person was (that's not what we were arguing).
It's generally style vs substance. The Ad hominem fallacy or arguing against the person and not the premise.

Involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because it point out true negative facts about the opponent's personal character that have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. In this case my typos and a few grammar errors, but I didn't say you did this.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:57 AM
 
144 posts, read 286,258 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurban8 View Post
Yeah when the guy asks what you lose by moving to Nashville or Charlotte, my mind starts thinking nightlife (however anemic), arts, diversity, shopping, restaurants, the list goes on.
I lived in Atlanta 20 years, and I'll be honest - Atlanta's array of thumping dance clubs is about as boring as it gets. Few "bars" with character, practically NO independent coffee shops.. just sports bars. Atlanta's night life is nothing to be proud of.
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