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Old 05-20-2010, 09:15 PM
 
2,758 posts, read 4,814,588 times
Reputation: 1108

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I like the article, if anything it'll push ATL to separate itself from other cities in the South (even more). Thanks for the videos ChiAtlDal, it's good to see that ambition again.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:32 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area (formerly DC and Boston)
1,937 posts, read 3,252,095 times
Reputation: 1516
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconJ View Post
Having lived in Charlotte, I can say without hesitation that it's a significant difference.
agree, there's no Cheetah in Charlotte, there's not even a Flashers

I've been to this guy's blog and think he's probably gay, no way any straight person who does business in Atlanta would compare it to the sensory deprivation chamber that qualifies as North Carolina's biggest city
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
6,931 posts, read 9,634,615 times
Reputation: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Again, it is an apples and oranges comparison. There is the obvious size difference between the two. The burbs cover over 5000 square miles to Atlanta's 132. Additionally, the two areas also attract different types of people.

As much as living in the suburbs is unpopular in urbanist circles (including myself), such is not true for the public at large. In every city, in every region of this country, suburban living is the preferred method of housing for most people even in places like New York City or San Francisco. People moving back into the central city is a new phenomenon and it'll take at least a generation or two to see where it will lead. So far for Atlanta, it has been literally a smashing success.

For instance, if you compare the City of Atlanta with other central cities of similar physical size, a rather interesting thing occurs:

Seattle - 86 square miles land area
2000 Population - 516,259
2009 Population - 563,374
Numerical gain: 47,115
Percentage gain: 6.9%

Denver - 154 square miles land area
2000 Population - 554,636
2009 Population - 598,707
Numerical gain: 44,071
Percentage gain: 7.9%

Philadelphia - 127 square miles land area
2000 Population - 1,517,550
2009 Population - 1,547,901
Numerical gain: 30,449
Percentage gain: 2.0%

Portland - 134 square miles land area
2000 Population - 529,121
2009 Population - 557,706
Numerical gain: 28,585
Percentage gain: 5.0%

Atlanta - 132 square miles land area
2000 Population - 416,474
2009 Population - 537,958
Numerical gain: 121,484
Percentage gain: 29.1% increase

Now, all of these metropolitan areas have grown since 2000 (with the exception of Philly, which has pretty much broken even) but just look at the significant difference in population change without annexation. A large gain in population just by people moving to an existing city that Atlanta had this past decade hasn't happened in several generations in just about anywhere else in this country.

If you were to listen to the general rule of thumb, there is nothing remarkable about urban Atlanta, and it very few people want to move to the city proper. However, for the cities above and smaller areas such as Washington DC, Miami, Boston, or San Fran, none them can match the explosion in urban growth that Atlanta has had.

Granted, some of those cities have a much larger old urban backbone than Atlanta does, but none of them have put as much focus on redeveloping and new urbanism as Atlanta has. The fact that it only gets a casual mention by many is rather frustrating, but oh well. This city has a history of doing things no one ever thought it could. That's kind of our thing.
Not to be nitpicky and take away from your excellent post Sir War, but the estimates you list, while the most recent for city populations, are actually the estimates for 2008. Just checked the census bureau's site and they still haven't released new numbers for incorporated areas. Metro areas and county numbers for 2009 have been given, but not cities yet.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Maryland
37 posts, read 66,773 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Atlanta FAIL TO ANNEX THAT WHY ATL RATIO IS 1/10 if Dallas Houston, San Antonio, San Diego, Austin, Columbus, Charlotte, Fort Worth, had the city limit area of Atlanta they would be about the same size as Atlanta or significantly smaller. If you notice the difference between those cities and northern cities the sunbelt cities have a large city limit size than northern cities, Atlanta is unusual because the city limit is too small for the type of city is Atlanta traditionally a city built out. The political laws in Georgia as well as the political Atmosphere here made it difficult to annex. Your judging ATL as if it’s a northeastern or Midwestern city, how the heck do more than 1/10 of a sun belt metropolitan 8,376 sq mi just suppose be in a sun belt city of 132.4 sq mi? that doesn’t even makes sense. Your just focusing on more people should be in Atlanta failing to understand Atlanta itself should bigger and annex it's inner suburbs a long time ago, for the type of city Atlanta is.

Dallas another sunbelt city is 1,279,910 in 385.0 sq mi. Atlanta, College park, East point, Decatur, Doraville and etc would be over million people, and you can fit all of that in 385.0 sq mi the size of Dallas. You really don’t get it. ATLANTA is small because the city limit size not cause people don’t want live here.
No, I do get it. Atlanta is closer in size to older, Northern cities. It's layout is similar to newer, Southern cities. The result of the combination is a smaller ratio of people living in the city as compared to the metro area. But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that Atlanta has a unique set of circumstances that make the ratio different and interesting. I never said "more people should be in Atlanta" or that anything was wrong about the way the city is right now or the current ratio, or that the ratio is "supposed" to be something else, nor am I "judging" the city.

Again, I am not commenting on the city, it's policies, it's quality, or anything else. I am saying that in my experience, the Atlanta mailing address is less of a priority or less desirable than in other cities. To put it another way, in every city there are basically three types of people:

I - people who want to live in the city because they want the cultural capital that the address brings
II - people who don't want to live in the city because they see the cultural capital as a loss because they don't like the connotations associated with it
III - people who don't care one way or the other

My experience has been that Atlanta has a lower ratio of Type I (because people in Atlanta tend to get less caught up in that than people in other cities), an average or higher ratio of Type II (because of unfair perceptions about the city), and that more of Type III probably live outside the city than in other places because it's easier to get around Atlanta than a lot of other major cities because of its size and infrastructure - the combination you mention.

Or, to put it another way, if you were to model people's interest in a certain neighborhood with the dependent variable being interest and one of the dependent variables was whether the neighborhood was in Atlanta, I think the coefficient for that variable would be lower in Atlanta than in the other cities I named. If identical houses in Washington, DC, as compared to Northern Virginia sold for 35% higher, I would expect the Atlanta mailing address markup to be 34% or less (numbers just to serve as an example).

Again, I am not critiquing the city, or it's suburbs, or its planning, or its quality of life. I'm just saying that I think people in the Atlanta area are more concerned with things like neighborhood quality, commuting time, and access to entertainment options, major roads, and shopping than they are with what they write down on their return address. Honestly, it's one of the things I always liked about the city, because I think it makes a lot more sense to live where you want based on those kinds of things rather suffering through a worse living situation at a higher rent so that you can awkwardly work in to conversation that you live in the city, rather than outside it, like so many people I know who live in DC.

In short: I'm not saying that the combination of layout and geography you mention don't play a major role, that Atlanta is doing anything wrong, that it should be doing things differently, or that people don't want to live there. I'm just saying that I think people in the Atlanta area are smart enough to realize their self-worth doesn't have anything to do with what city they put down on the rare occasion they have to give their address.

Last edited by bluepepper; 05-20-2010 at 09:55 PM..
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,805 posts, read 11,774,445 times
Reputation: 5417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Not to be nitpicky and take away from your excellent post Sir War, but the estimates you list, while the most recent for city populations, are actually the estimates for 2008. Just checked the census bureau's site and they still haven't released new numbers for incorporated areas. Metro areas and county numbers for 2009 have been given, but not cities yet.
Quite right. The correct way to present it would be the most current data, as of 2009. The last estimates for the previous decade will be out in July.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
6,931 posts, read 9,634,615 times
Reputation: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Atlanta FAIL TO ANNEX THAT WHY ATL RATIO IS 1/10 if Dallas Houston, San Antonio, San Diego, Austin, Columbus, Charlotte, Fort Worth, had the city limit area of Atlanta they would be about the same size as Atlanta or significantly smaller. If you notice the difference between those cities and northern cities the sunbelt cities have a large city limit size than northern cities, Atlanta is unusual because the city limit is too small for the type of city is Atlanta traditionally a city built out. The political laws in Georgia as well as the political Atmosphere here made it difficult to annex. Your judging ATL as if it’s a northeastern or Midwestern city, how the heck do more than 1/10 of a sun belt metropolitan 8,376 sq mi just suppose be in a sun belt city of 132.4 sq mi? that doesn’t even makes sense. Your just focusing on more people should be in Atlanta failing to understand Atlanta itself should bigger and annex it's inner suburbs a long time ago, for the type of city Atlanta is.

Dallas another sunbelt city is 1,279,910 in 385.0 sq mi. Atlanta, College park, East point, Decatur, Doraville and etc would be over million people, and you can fit all of that in 385.0 sq mi the size of Dallas. You really don’t get it. ATLANTA is small because the city limit size not cause people don’t want live here.
It isn't as much Atlanta's failure to annex, more than it is the laws in Georgia that give the counties so much more power than other similar states. The fact that our counties are so small, metro counties tend to offer the municipal services and act more like small cities themselves than most counties in other states.

There is ALWAYS a huge battle in any Georgia area when a city wants to annex, the county fights it, the residents in the new area fight it. Georgia law has not been pro annexation.

The one thing that has happened to get around this is consolidation of city and county governments. Columbus started this back in the late 60s or early 70s, followed by Augusta/Richmond, Athens/Clarke. A couple of smaller south Georgia counties have merged as well: Cusseta/Chattahoochee and Georgetown/Quitman.

Atlanta and other metro counties are not good candidates for this because of multiple cities within the counties. The good candidates for this in the metro area would be Douglasville/Douglas and Conyers/Rockdale and Cumming/Forsyth as they are the only incorporated cities in those counties.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Maryland
37 posts, read 66,773 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Again, it is an apples and oranges comparison. There is the obvious size difference between the two. The burbs cover over 5000 square miles to Atlanta's 132. Additionally, the two areas also attract different types of people.

As much as living in the suburbs is unpopular in urbanist circles (including myself), such is not true for the public at large. In every city, in every region of this country, suburban living is the preferred method of housing for most people even in places like New York City or San Francisco. People moving back into the central city is a new phenomenon and it'll take at least a generation or two to see where it will lead. So far for Atlanta, it has been literally a smashing success.

For instance, if you compare the City of Atlanta with other central cities of similar physical size, a rather interesting thing occurs:

Seattle - 86 square miles land area
2000 Population - 516,259
2009 Population - 563,374
Numerical gain: 47,115
Percentage gain: 6.9%

Denver - 154 square miles land area
2000 Population - 554,636
2009 Population - 598,707
Numerical gain: 44,071
Percentage gain: 7.9%

Philadelphia - 127 square miles land area
2000 Population - 1,517,550
2009 Population - 1,547,901
Numerical gain: 30,449
Percentage gain: 2.0%

Portland - 134 square miles land area
2000 Population - 529,121
2009 Population - 557,706
Numerical gain: 28,585
Percentage gain: 5.0%

Atlanta - 132 square miles land area
2000 Population - 416,474
2009 Population - 537,958
Numerical gain: 121,484
Percentage gain: 29.1% increase


Now, all of these metropolitan areas have grown since 2000 (with the exception of Philly, which has pretty much broken even) but just look at the significant difference in population change without annexation. A large gain in population just by people moving to an existing city that Atlanta had this past decade hasn't happened in several generations in just about anywhere else in this country.

If you were to listen to the general rule of thumb, there is nothing remarkable about urban Atlanta, and it very few people want to move to the city proper. However, for the cities above and smaller areas such as Washington DC, Miami, Boston, or San Fran, none them can match the explosion in urban growth that Atlanta has had.

Granted, some of those cities have a much larger old urban backbone than Atlanta does, but none of them have put as much focus on redeveloping and new urbanism as Atlanta has. The fact that it only gets a casual mention by many is rather frustrating, but oh well. This city has a history of doing things no one ever thought it could. That's kind of our thing.
This is an awesome post. Lots of really good data.

Having been out of the city for a couple of years, and dying to move back, I'm curious what people make of this. How fast do you think the city (and metro area) will grow in the future? How will it handle it?

I see those numbers and I get nervous that Atlanta's going to become crowed, expensive, and insufferable - in short, that it'll become like DC. I'm dying to leave DC and come back to Atlanta, so the last thing I was is for the city to change to be more like Washington - tell me I'm just being paranoid.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Midtown, Atlanta
128 posts, read 292,496 times
Reputation: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
agree, there's no Cheetah in Charlotte, there's not even a Flashers

I've been to this guy's blog and think he's probably gay, no way any straight person who does business in Atlanta would compare it to the sensory deprivation chamber that qualifies as North Carolina's biggest city
Are you kidding me??!! Atlanta has the biggest gay scene in the Southeast (even without Backstreet R.I.P). We have Swinging Richards, 'nuff said
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 21,956,815 times
Reputation: 3853
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeandIke27 View Post
I hate the suburbs and dont know how anyone could live so far out. If I had to live far out it would be Dunwoody other than that you guys can have the commutes
"Far out" from what?

Since my workplace, favorite restaurants, and other shopping and entertainment venues are mainly in Cobb County, I don't see how you could live so far in. It's all right next to me.

The truth: Cobb borders the City of Atlanta. The distance isn't "far" in either direction.
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,805 posts, read 11,774,445 times
Reputation: 5417
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
This is an awesome post. Lots of really good data.

Having been out of the city for a couple of years, and dying to move back, I'm curious what people make of this. How fast do you think the city (and metro area) will grow in the future? How will it handle it?

I see those numbers and I get nervous that Atlanta's going to become crowed, expensive, and insufferable - in short, that it'll become like DC. I'm dying to leave DC and come back to Atlanta, so the last thing I was is for the city to change to be more like Washington - tell me I'm just being paranoid.
I wouldn't say it's crowded yet, but the change in level of activity is definitely noticeable. Fortunately, MARTA is already in place and the Beltline and Streetcars will be built of the next few years, going in tandem with the additional growth. If we were a city that didn't already have at least a subway, I'd be a lot more pessimistic.

The other side of the coin is that as far as Atlanta is laid out, it isn't usually what people say it is. The city was built for high density populations and has just reclaimed that. Before the Buckhead annexation, the city had a population density of over 9000. Take away Buckhead, and it would be near to that or higher today. Why, because aside from the Peachtree corridor and Lindbergh, the population of Buckhead hasn't changed that drastically since 2000. Most of the growth has been in the central city and east side neighborhoods. Those were the exact same neighborhoods that were in the pre-1952 city of atlanta.

Outside of that, there is still plenty of room to grow in Atlanta. To match the overall density of say DC, then we would need to add another 500,000 residents. So, for now, crowding won't be an issue.
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