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So where would be a better place to put it? Seems fairly logical to me, put the resource close to those who actually need it. If you stuck it somewhere else, A) how would those who need the service get there B) who would want a large concentration of these folks in _their_ area. Both A and B takes into account the fact that those folks tend to stick around that area.
Not that I don't think that there could be a better potential place, but look at your own response to the "homeless kingdom". Sounds like most folks won't like it anywhere it happens to be, so to be aghast that it's located where it is seems a bit disingenuous.
Hmm. Well first, my comment about the "kingdom" was based on the fact that you can see an independent, giant pile of garbage from a satellite image. I think that is disgusting on its own merit. If it was on someone's private property, having nothing to do with homeless people I would still say the same thing. I think creating a pile of garbage in the woods is pretty unsanitary. That's my point.
And as far as my statement on the location of ARCH, I see nothing disingenuous at all. I've never suggested that it be located in someone's neighborhood. I also understand that someone will be unhappy no matter where it is located - and it does need to be centrally located. I just think that its proximity to 6th street and RR is ill-conceived. There are no real advantages to its current location other than access to liquor and panhandling. To elaborate:
1.)How can anyone think it's a good idea to have a homeless shelter across the street from a major liquor store? BTW, the liquor store has been there since 1982 so ARCH was placed across the street knowingly (late 90s I believe).
2.)Because of its proximity to 6th and RR, we're not talking about a few pandhandlers here and there but a situation where they can be totally overwhelming from a numbers point of view which inevitably causes more conflicts. Sorry, but there's a big difference between encountering a panhandler and a pack of panhandlers. In the situation I described above (sitting on my car), there were no less than a dozen homeless men hanging around my vehicle (with two sitting on it). Now, I can be a wolverine if I need to be, but I'm not taking on 12 dudes. My wife was with me as well. Very uncomfortable. Thankfully the situation didn't escalate but it could have very easily. In my younger days I might have reacted differently How would you have reacted?
3.)Because it is so close to the most well-known, populated district in Austin, it actually encourages more panhandling by making it an easy and accessible "commute" for panhandlers. Unlike the folks around the freeways, they can simply hang around the perimeter of the shelter without making much effort at all. Almost everyone parking off of 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th East of Trinity has to walk through the front line. Easy pickins. And I'm sorry but panhandling to inebriated college kids and tourists doesn't seem very safe either.
4.)Also, from a purely superficial standpoint, it makes Austin look a bit grubby to people visiting (and most of them go to that area). Now that may or may not make a difference to you or anyone else (or me), just putting it out there.
And just to make myself clear: my position on the location of Arch is not based on some squeamish, uptight viewpoint. I'm not afraid to see the world the way it really is and I certainly want the homeless to have access to quality shelters and assistance. I just think that the city of Austin could have thought that location through a bit better.
Hmm. Well first, my comment about the "kingdom" was based on the fact that you can see an independent, giant pile of garbage from a satellite image. I think that is disgusting on its own merit. If it was on someone's private property, having nothing to do with homeless people I would still say the same thing. I think creating a pile of garbage in the woods is pretty unsanitary. That's my point.
And as far as my statement on the location of ARCH, I see nothing disingenuous at all. I've never suggested that it be located in someone's neighborhood. I also understand that someone will be unhappy no matter where it is located - and it does need to be centrally located. I just think that its proximity to 6th street and RR is ill-conceived. There are no real advantages to its current location other than access to liquor and panhandling. To elaborate:
1.)How can anyone think it's a good idea to have a homeless shelter across the street from a major liquor store? BTW, the liquor store has been there since 1982 so ARCH was placed across the street knowingly (late 90s I believe).
2.)Because of its proximity to 6th and RR, we're not talking about a few pandhandlers here and there but a situation where they can be totally overwhelming from a numbers point of view which inevitably causes more conflicts. Sorry, but there's a big difference between encountering a panhandler and a pack of panhandlers. In the situation I described above (sitting on my car), there were no less than a dozen homeless men hanging around my vehicle (with two sitting on it). Now, I can be a wolverine if I need to be, but I'm not taking on 12 dudes. My wife was with me as well. Very uncomfortable. Thankfully the situation didn't escalate but it could have very easily. In my younger days I might have reacted differently How would you have reacted?
3.)Because it is so close to the most well-known, populated district in Austin, it actually encourages more panhandling by making it an easy and accessible "commute" for panhandlers. Unlike the folks around the freeways, they can simply hang around the perimeter of the shelter without making much effort at all. Almost everyone parking off of 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th East of Trinity has to walk through the front line. Easy pickins. And I'm sorry but panhandling to inebriated college kids and tourists doesn't seem very safe either.
4.)Also, from a purely superficial standpoint, it makes Austin look a bit grubby to people visiting (and most of them go to that area). Now that may or may not make a difference to you or anyone else (or me), just putting it out there.
And just to make myself clear: my position on the location of Arch is not based on some squeamish, uptight viewpoint. I'm not afraid to see the world the way it really is and I certainly want the homeless to have access to quality shelters and assistance. I just think that the city of Austin could have thought that location through a bit better.
I completely agree with you. Every time I drive down East 7th St, I see a police car stopped at that corner because of some altercation that's going on there.
I now totally avoid this section of Downtown if I'm on foot no matter what time of day it is. I can't imagine how anyone would want to live Downtown if riff raff like this can't be gotten under control.
I completely agree with you. Every time I drive down East 7th St, I see a police car stopped at that corner because of some altercation that's going on there.
I now totally avoid this section of Downtown if I'm on foot no matter what time of day it is. I can't imagine how anyone would want to live Downtown if riff raff like this can't be gotten under control.
Actually there is always a police presence there regardless of what's going on. I pass through there at least once a week on foot, and I've never personally observed any type of disturbance, but I always see some law enforcement there. Don't forget, the police are just a couple of blocks down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twange
Because it is so close to the most well-known, populated district in Austin, it actually encourages more panhandling by making it an easy and accessible "commute" for panhandlers.
I disagree. I work downtown and am on foot almost every day of the week. The folks I see panhandling on 6th represent a pretty consistent group that really doesn't seem to relate that much with those who are at ARCH. Not that I don't see the ARCH folks around 6th st, I'm referring to those who I've specifically have seen asking for handouts.
The City of Austin has made it quite clear that they are trying to build out the area west of Congress to become the destination point for downtown. The issue of panhandlers downtown goes way beyond ARCH as anyone who has spent any amount of time in any large city would tell you. If you want to talk about realities vs perceptions, given the very high concentration of homeless folks around ARCH, there are surprisingly few (IMHO) incidences involving the homeless (and even fewer serious incidences). It seems to me that drunk folks coming into downtown tend to cause more actual problems than the vagrants that live here.
Hmm. Well first, my comment about the "kingdom" was based on the fact that you can see an independent, giant pile of garbage from a satellite image. I think that is disgusting on its own merit. If it was on someone's private property, having nothing to do with homeless people I would still say the same thing. I think creating a pile of garbage in the woods is pretty unsanitary. That's my point.
And as far as my statement on the location of ARCH, I see nothing disingenuous at all. I've never suggested that it be located in someone's neighborhood. I also understand that someone will be unhappy no matter where it is located - and it does need to be centrally located. I just think that its proximity to 6th street and RR is ill-conceived. There are no real advantages to its current location other than access to liquor and panhandling. To elaborate:
1.)How can anyone think it's a good idea to have a homeless shelter across the street from a major liquor store? BTW, the liquor store has been there since 1982 so ARCH was placed across the street knowingly (late 90s I believe).
2.)Because of its proximity to 6th and RR, we're not talking about a few pandhandlers here and there but a situation where they can be totally overwhelming from a numbers point of view which inevitably causes more conflicts. Sorry, but there's a big difference between encountering a panhandler and a pack of panhandlers. In the situation I described above (sitting on my car), there were no less than a dozen homeless men hanging around my vehicle (with two sitting on it). Now, I can be a wolverine if I need to be, but I'm not taking on 12 dudes. My wife was with me as well. Very uncomfortable. Thankfully the situation didn't escalate but it could have very easily. In my younger days I might have reacted differently How would you have reacted?
3.)Because it is so close to the most well-known, populated district in Austin, it actually encourages more panhandling by making it an easy and accessible "commute" for panhandlers. Unlike the folks around the freeways, they can simply hang around the perimeter of the shelter without making much effort at all. Almost everyone parking off of 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th East of Trinity has to walk through the front line. Easy pickins. And I'm sorry but panhandling to inebriated college kids and tourists doesn't seem very safe either.
4.)Also, from a purely superficial standpoint, it makes Austin look a bit grubby to people visiting (and most of them go to that area). Now that may or may not make a difference to you or anyone else (or me), just putting it out there.
And just to make myself clear: my position on the location of Arch is not based on some squeamish, uptight viewpoint. I'm not afraid to see the world the way it really is and I certainly want the homeless to have access to quality shelters and assistance. I just think that the city of Austin could have thought that location through a bit better.
I still remember the first day I spent in Austin when I moved here..I was staying at a hotel DT, and walked 5th in the morning on Sunday..no activity, but did get asked for change at least 3 times...I was thinking, what the hell town IS this? had no idea that shelter was just down the road apiece...sort of like urban renewal, in that where can you really place them without being prejudiced, in a way, against them? They will pop up everywhere anyway....all large metros have a large community of beggers now in the US, so this is just part of being a huge, growing metro, and 16th largest city in the nation..
I am sick and tired of the homeless scams in Austin- the poverty pimps who pass tax upon tax for healthcare and support for the homeless. The VAST majority of panhandlers I see are white, middle aged men. If a white middle aged man can't get a job- any job- in the USA, I'd be very surprised. I'm sure there are plenty of people down on their luck, and I think our country is rich enough to help those folks (especially families), but there are people who have made panhandling and living off the land their lifestyle. Go for it- but do it on your own dime.
So where would be a better place to put it? Seems fairly logical to me, put the resource close to those who actually need it. If you stuck it somewhere else, A) how would those who need the service get there B) who would want a large concentration of these folks in _their_ area. Both A and B takes into account the fact that those folks tend to stick around that area.
Not that I don't think that there could be a better potential place, but look at your own response to the "homeless kingdom". Sounds like most folks won't like it anywhere it happens to be, so to be aghast that it's located where it is seems a bit disingenuous.
I am sick and tired of the homeless scams in Austin- the poverty pimps who pass tax upon tax for healthcare and support for the homeless. The VAST majority of panhandlers I see are white, middle aged men. If a white middle aged man can't get a job- any job- in the USA, I'd be very surprised. I'm sure there are plenty of people down on their luck, and I think our country is rich enough to help those folks (especially families), but there are people who have made panhandling and living off the land their lifestyle. Go for it- but do it on your own dime.
MM, I really like your posts, and this is my opinion, so please don't take offense here.....
First, does one have to be black or brown(hispanic) to be an authentic needy person, beyond the whole aspect of a able man of any age begging? I do agree that able bodied of any race, sex, or persuation are prob either mentally ill, a druggie/alcky, or in some temporary distress, like losing home/family.....I don't know if i'd call it a garden-variety lazy. I think it's far harder "work" to beg for cash, and fight each night for a safe place to sleep and eat. I don't think that would be the first choice of anyone, even the lazy. You have lazy people that mark time in gov't jobs whoring taxpayers dollars, logging onto the web during work hours, burning sick time, and such. You have lazy mates who refuse to work. You have lazy kids who live in the family res., marking time with either part-time crap jobs or nothing at all, rolling blunts all day/night.....lazy musicians in the city who hang around all day, just gigging, with no thought for the morrow.....
This city also is the most anglo in Texas per large cities, and panhandlers simply reflect the same....finally, black and brown able bodies men can be just as lazy and ne'erdowell as their anglo kinfolk.....
Lastly, the vast majority of poor in the USA are still white, they being the majority race in the country.....most are rural and small-mid-city folks, but they still constitute the majority, and that prob includes Austin as well.
MM, I really like your posts, and this is my opinion, so please don't take offense here.....
First, does one have to be black or brown(hispanic) to be an authentic needy person, beyond the whole aspect of a able man of any age begging? I do agree that able bodied of any race, sex, or persuation are prob either mentally ill, a druggie/alcky, or in some temporary distress, like losing home/family.....I don't know if i'd call it a garden-variety lazy. I think it's far harder "work" to beg for cash, and fight each night for a safe place to sleep and eat. I don't think that would be the first choice of anyone, even the lazy. You have lazy people that mark time in gov't jobs whoring taxpayers dollars, logging onto the web during work hours, burning sick time, and such. You have lazy mates who refuse to work. You have lazy kids who live in the family res., marking time with either part-time crap jobs or nothing at all, rolling blunts all day/night.....lazy musicians in the city who hang around all day, just gigging, with no thought for the morrow.....
This city also is the most anglo in Texas per large cities, and panhandlers simply reflect the same....finally, black and brown able bodies men can be just as lazy and ne'erdowell as their anglo kinfolk.....
Lastly, the vast majority of poor in the USA are still white, they being the majority race in the country.....most are rural and small-mid-city folks, but they still constitute the majority, and that prob includes Austin as well.
Oh, I don't take offense at all. What I meant by my comment is that there is a history of 'white privelege' in the US http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf . Historically, power in the US has been concentrated in the hands of white, Anglo Saxon, tall males. For these fellows to be panhandling, when the system has been historically stacked in their favor, is incredible. FTR, I don't think panhandlers are lazy- not at all. What they are doing is what fancy people call 'fundraising'. They are using guilt to raise money for their lifestyle. It is their right to stand and ask for money. I feel no guilt whatsover and never give them money- unless they are providing a service, like playing the guitar or telling jokes (there's a big guy on Mopac and Anderson/Steck/Far West who has HILARIOUS placards...I always give them a dollar).
As for the poor, there have always been poor, and they are poor because of poor lifestyle choices. Austin is incredibly generous to people in poverty, and as I pointed out earlier, the US is a wealthy country (and Austin is a wealthy city) that can afford to help people- temporarily.
Oh, I don't take offense at all. What I meant by my comment is that there is a history of 'white privelege' in the US http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf . Historically, power in the US has been concentrated in the hands of white, Anglo Saxon, tall males. For these fellows to be panhandling, when the system has been historically stacked in their favor, is incredible. FTR, I don't think panhandlers are lazy- not at all. What they are doing is what fancy people call 'fundraising'. They are using guilt to raise money for their lifestyle. It is their right to stand and ask for money. I feel no guilt whatsover and never give them money- unless they are providing a service, like playing the guitar or telling jokes (there's a big guy on Mopac and Anderson/Steck/Far West who has HILARIOUS placards...I always give them a dollar).
As for the poor, there have always been poor, and they are poor because of poor lifestyle choices. Austin is incredibly generous to people in poverty, and as I pointed out earlier, the US is a wealthy country (and Austin is a wealthy city) that can afford to help people- temporarily.
MM, I'm gonna take the risk of being un PC, and tell you what I personally have seen..most of my life was lived in chicago(been here in aus 4 years), and the vast majority, I would say 80-85%, were black. I would not say it was totally rare to see whites 'handling, but pretty rare..they stood out, if so, lets put it that way...only saw two white women begging in all of DT chicago in the years I worked there, and one was the same lady working a metro station entrance, that I always tried to convince to go to a shelter.
The other was a teen girl full of little scams...one week she needed money for a greyhound bus back home, the next she was pregnant, and needed money for her baby.......
I would say I was shocked at first to see so many white males myself begging in Austin...sure a new thing on me...however, that whole paradigm of the white male running/ruining the world is a half-truth propagated by feminists and black power racists back in the day...its just too simple to point to that. Woman have made huge strides, and it was because technology wiped out most of the manufacturing and such that men traditionally worked in up to say 1950, and created a national service/tech economy that we live in today...many women today, including my sister who was a former news anchor in south carolina(Charleston) perfer to stay home and raise the kids until they at least are of school age. Many do not, and rush off to work again shortly after maternity leave. I knew a lady that took just one month, and jumped right back into work(have no idea who took care of her infant, prob her mom).
So it takes all types...
There has always been a bum underbelly in society..I do strongly think Austin encourages panhandling by looking the other way. Where can they NOT beg? I see them everywhere....the place I hate to see them is on the outskirts of the city, in traffic islands and underpasses, as far north as Cedar Park borders....to me, that is ridiculous to allow them to hit the residential areas....I've seen them in round rock as well....that is what is overbearing...in other cities, they seem to stay in the central areas, but here they are everywhere, even the young hippie versions of the same on the drag......add a warm clime, and thats why we have so many.....
My un PC point is, I very very rarely see a hispanic beg..I can't say I ever have actually....and there is a reason for that...I don't know a word to describe it in Spanish, but there is a "machismo" element, where you work, and anything you can, and never ever beg in public....even in Mexico, people sell little items rather than beg, be it balloons, hats, Jalisco soda, ice cream, anything but just ask for money outright....
...finally, whatever happened to those who would at least perform a little service for the money...not just wiping the windshields, but shining shoes,
carrying items, or, hell, at least singing or playing the guitar/harmonica?
The thing that is so ignorant here is people asking for money for nothing, just expecting someone to hand it over like that...that I cannot understand at all.
Oh, i forgot this little story....I went to Seattle in about 98 for a spell, and came in via the bus....had to transfer to the train station, and had no idea how that worked.
I was in the Burger King, and a homeless young man, about 19, offered to carry my bags(which were very heavy, BTW) to the train depot, which turned out to be about 4 blocks away, if I would buy him two egg croisants(do they even still have those?)....I did, and he carried the bags 4 blocks, and showed me where the train stop was.
Took me right there. That cost me about 4 bucks....a shame that people here can't be as helpful, just putting the palm out like a bellhop at a hotel(who at least brought your bags up)....again, mindblowing to expect folks to fork out change for absolutely nothing.
Last edited by inthecut; 08-29-2010 at 08:21 PM..
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How would you have reacted?
