A little Austin history...the 1966 University of Texas shootings...44 years ago this month (Houston: apartments, house)

[CptnRn]

I found this 25 minute video of the news program reporting on the shooting later that day. It includes an interview with Mr. Allen Crum. the Wiki indicates his name is spelled Allen Crum. The APD description of events indicated that Whitman was aiming his rifle at Crum when Officer Martinez shot him. There were a lot of hero's there that day, including civilians who helped drag some of Whitman's victims to shelter.

The Neal Spelce Collection, No. 1 - UT Tower Shooting - TAMI

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Yeah, I think you are right about the reason UT officials did not want to have much to do with the movie.

You mentioned there not being any high structures around where police could have had a better trajectory in return fire. Very true. However, they DID attempt to do so by plane (this was presented in the movie). It was a bi-plane and a police "sharpshooter" rode in the back seat as the civilian pilot tried to circle close enough where the latter could get a shot. But Whitman shot back and managed to damage the to the extent that plan had to be abandoned.

One of my main issues with the movie is that it had a decidedly anti-gun slant to it. I sure don't want to turn this thread into a debate on the issue of gun-control, but I do have to say that there was an unmistakeable "sub-theme" which implied strict limits on civilian gun ownership would have gone a long way in preventing such a tragedy.

As it was, Officer Ramiro Martinez (who, along with Houston McCoy, actually fired the shots which killed Whitman) later wrote in his memories on the incident, that armed citizens of Austin who intitially started to fight back, and continued to pitch in and aid the police, deserved a lot of credit for helping to stop the rampage.

Moderator cut: sorry, it's CD's moderated thread, the terms of service apply(gun control)....thats just fudging the issue....let that ride......

I was thinking the same thing..I thought they should have send a huey helicopter and just massively fired that tower deck....but that was then, and something like that never happened before in quite that way. A shock as much as the Kennedy Assassination, and in many ways similar and also far worse.....just man's inhumanity to man....should we learn lessons from this? yes.....per the following..

Life is short and precious....none of us HAD to be here, or have to, and each day is a joy and a miracle...we are here to be happy and share the same with our fellow man....each day is an opportunity to let your friends and family know you love em, even though they can be a pain in the @ss sometimes....still beyond price nevertheless....so smile, and realize that life itself is the most profound miracle of all, and live it fully....absolutely fully...laugh...love....and, what the hell, dance a little bit if you feel like it.....be a little silly.....

Life is to be enjoyed, and far too short..that's the legacy this should leave!

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by CptnRn

I found this 25 minute video of the news program reporting on the shooting later that day. It includes an interview with Mr. Allen Crum. the Wiki indicates his name is spelled Allen Crum. The APD description of events indicated that Whitman was aiming his rifle at Crum when Officer Martinez shot him. There were a lot of hero's there that day, including civilians who helped drag some of Whitman's victims to shelter.

The Neal Spelce Collection, No. 1 - UT Tower Shooting - TAMI

My God, they show live feeds of Whitman firing, with sound....i'm numb watching this....and whose to say which of those shots actually killed someone....and that rifle smoke shooting up....I don't know WHAT to think about this, seeing it actually happen live on TV here on the Austin news station....its insanity....sort of like the sep 11 towers going down..you just go numb watching it, and can't process it....I'm weird that way, but I would have definitely jumped in there with a rifle like Crum if I was nearby.
It's just the helplessness of it all....all you can do is watch this guy shoot, and hope you aren't in the line of fire....I understand he had a tumor in his brain, but that still doesn't explain it for me....does evil always have to have an organic cause? I think evil is just evil...I don't think it necessarily corresponds that one has to have some damaged part of the brain to do great evil....also, he was going to school at the time, and was married..why didn't anyone have a clue he was bonkers? How are these folks able to hide behind it for so long, until its too late?

I've been around for a long time, but somethings I'll just never figure out..

[CptnRn]

I remember watching this live on TV my freshman year in high school. It was especially shocking then because that kind of thing just didn't happen in those days. There wasn't nearly as much understanding or sensitivity regarding mental illnesses back then. It wasn't socially acceptable to admit you might need help or had a mental problem. If you had a mental problem or depression most people believed you were weak and simply needed to toughen up. It was a different era.

It was almost a relief for most people that the autopsy found Whitman had a brain tumor. That was something physical that we could blame his behavior on. It was much less disconcerting then thinking a mental illness could lead to that kind of behavior.

These were shocking times. First there was Lee Harvey Oswald in 1963, then Whitman in 1966. The next most shocking thing I can remember from that time period occurred less than 4 years later, the Kent State Massacre in 1970, where our own National Guard shot and killed college students for protesting America's invasion of Cambodia as well as many innocent bystanders. Shocking to realize that our own government was the enemy. I knew people who joined the National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam, and here they were shooting students for protesting the Vietnam/Cambodian war.

This whole era was full of things that shocked the American psyche and resulted in major changes to the way we saw ourselves and our country. This is the era when I learned what "outrage" felt like. I don't recall a time that experienced more turmoil until 9/11 came along.

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by CptnRn

I remember watching this live on TV my freshman year in high school. It was especially shocking then because that kind of thing just didn't happen in those days. There wasn't nearly as much understanding or sensitivity regarding mental illnesses back then. It wasn't socially acceptable to admit you might need help or had a mental problem. If you had a mental problem or depression most people believed you were weak and simply needed to toughen up. It was a different era.

It was almost a relief for most people that the autopsy found Whitman had a brain tumor. That was something physical that we could blame his behavior on. It was much less disconcerting then thinking a mental illness could lead to that kind of behavior.

These were shocking times. First there was Lee Harvey Oswald in 1963, then Whitman in 1966. The next most shocking thing I can remember from that time period occurred less than 4 years later, the Kent State Massacre in 1970, where our own National Guard shot and killed college students for protesting America's invasion of Cambodia as well as many innocent bystanders. Shocking to realize that our own government was the enemy. I knew people who joined the National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam, and here they were shooting students for protesting the Vietnam/Cambodian war.

This whole era was full of things that shocked the American psyche and resulted in major changes to the way we saw ourselves and our country. This is the era when I learned what "outrage" felt like. I don't recall a time that experienced more turmoil until 9/11 came along.

In all these years, I never caught that irony( nat guard troops, largely composed of those who got "placed" there to avoid 'nam by pulling a few strings), firing on students protesting a war and place THEY didn't want to be either....perhaps they should have shipped the entire platoon who fired on the students to Vietnam right after, and made a little more sport out of it, as they would have been fired upon in return...I wonder how many of those Ohio nat guard troops ever even made it to nam period..prob very very few, which is why they were in the guard in the first place....that was long before they started sending the guard to fight overseas, like they do now....I'm sure those guard troops would not have been pleased to find out they were being sent to nam if they got orders to do so after the shooting..I sure hope the ones that killed the 4 students were..BTW, several others were shot and paralyzed for life at Kent that day...

Side note...how much violence is caused just by SERVING overseas? SO many soldiers come back and commit spouce abuse, have mental problems, commit suicide, get into massive depressions, and there was a base where 4 spouses were killed in a span of a month....and look at so many of the homeless that are nam vets....its far beyond the mental health services they receive or don't recieve(even though the military is hardly equipped to provide the same)....its just that they never come back the same again.
They are trained for one thing, and, unless they are very healthy minded, many will come back with major mental problems...so this is still an issue, and I think Whitman's marine training had as much to do with his going bonkers as anything else...

[capcat]

Originally Posted by CptnRn

These were shocking times. First there was Lee Harvey Oswald in 1963, then Whitman in 1966. The next most shocking thing I can remember from that time period occurred less than 4 years later, the Kent State Massacre in 1970, where our own National Guard shot and killed college students for protesting America's invasion of Cambodia as well as many innocent bystanders. Shocking to realize that our own government was the enemy. I knew people who joined the National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam, and here they were shooting students for protesting the Vietnam/Cambodian war.

This whole era was full of things that shocked the American psyche and resulted in major changes to the way we saw ourselves and our country. This is the era when I learned what "outrage" felt like. I don't recall a time that experienced more turmoil until 9/11 came along.

Good post, CptnRn.

inthecut, Charles Whitman was seen by a mental health professional before the shootings. IIRC, what came of that, or what didn't come of it, was part of the tragedy. I didn't intend to blame his behavior on a tumor, just noting that he had one.

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by capcat

Good post, CptnRn.

inthecut, Charles Whitman was seen by a mental health professional before the shootings. IIRC, what came of that, or what didn't come of it, was part of the tragedy. I didn't intend to blame his behavior on a tumor, just noting that he had one.

And what could they have done anyway, short of cutting out the tumor? I think he just lost it per the tumor, probably pressing on the part of the brain that causes one to fight/flight(I think its called the amydala or something), and just fell back on what he knew, per the military training/preparedness....which has very little weight in the real civilian world, ala stockpiles, rear-guard paranoia, and such, but can do great damage when all you've ever felt and cared about upstairs has left the "building", and all you can do is react and fight(same as those 4 guys that all strangled their wives in bed on the same base a few years ago in Fort Benning.

[capcat]

He relayed a fantasy of going up to the tower and shooting people with a deer rifle. What could have been done? Not sure.

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by capcat

He relayed a fantasy of going up to the tower and shooting people with a deer rifle. What could have been done? Not sure.

I guess they could have locked the door to the observation deck, anyway. Too bad it wasn't closed for cleaning or the summer recess.

[RevMen]

Originally Posted by inthecut

Makes the college shootings at kent state pale in comparison....

Certainly not my intention to downplay either event, but the Kent State shootings were so tragic because the shooters were our own armed forces.

Interesting that Kent State comes up in this thread. Saturday night I saw one of my favorite bands Ween at Stubb's, and they played CSN&Y's Ohio as they sometimes do. It made me realize that people remain more aware of the Kent State shootings than other similar events at that time because of that song. A crowd composed of people who, for the most part, hadn't even been born in 1970 were singing along with the band and it's probably safe to say a large number of them learned about the event through the song.