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Old 04-12-2012, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,213 posts, read 2,493,217 times
Reputation: 2175

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scm53 View Post
Uh, yea, you did. You made two references to Salvation Army donations going to politicians or political groups - which you now can't seem to find any evidence of.

And as far as defining "hate speech", that term includes religious organizations - which the Salvation Army is - in the "protected class".

And finally, you are pretty free and loose with the emotionally laden words "homophobic hate group" to describe the Salvation Army. If they they truly were, then they most certainly wouldn't extend their services to homosexuals, right? I mean if you really hate someone, then you couldn't stand being around them. But you have no evidence of that - and in fact their policy statements make it quite clear they don't discriminate for any reason. So, how are they a "hate group" if they minister to the people you accuse them of hating.

So, made unsupported accusations about illegal political donations, irresponsibly used dispicible words like "homophobic" and "hate group" - again, unsupported. All about a religious organization. Sounds like hate speech to me.
I did support it, you just didn't accept my evidence. The salvation army did donate to political groups in New Zealand and In America (others too, but I only provided evidence for those 2 countries) that existed solely to surpress the rights of homosexuals and their equalization in society.

The evidence is there, whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. As far as your argument that the Salvation Army can't be homophobic if they agree to help homosexual people, I disagree. A person can be racist and still agree to work for a black boss. A man can be a misogynist and still get married to a woman. A person can be an anti-semetic and still set next to a jew in a theater.

And the salvation army can still be homophobic even if they will not turn away homosexuals who ask for help. If they help gays, that's great. But it doesn't change the fact that they donate time, energy, AND money to disinclude gays from rights enjoyed by other americans.

I hear this argument a lot. "I can't be homophobic because I don't hate gay people! I love them! I love them so much that I want to pass laws denying them rights, and I won't let them around my children, and I say they are unnatural and a danger to society! That's love!" That's what the salvation army says, by the way. Just go read their website on the topic. They say they don't believe in discrimination, but they do want laws passed to disenfranchise gays. They say they will treat eveyrone with christian love, but they also say homsexuality is wrong, and immoral and dangerous and you better be straight or celibate, those are your only two choices.

You may consider the above to be "pro gay". I don't. And I have a right to say that. It's not hate speech to point out that a group is hypocritical.


This is why your postings are intellectually dishonest...Because you say I DONT provide you with evidence of my claims. I DID provide evidence, you just didn't like the evidence. So how about being honest and saying "I don't agree with your evidence, here is evidence to debunk it" instead of saying I never provided evidence, which I did.

 
Old 04-12-2012, 03:51 PM
 
Location: The Lone Star State
5,224 posts, read 3,359,079 times
Reputation: 3334
Quote:
Originally Posted by scm53 View Post
Uh, yea, you did. You made two references to Salvation Army donations going to politicians or political groups - which you now can't seem to find any evidence of.

And as far as defining "hate speech", that term includes religious organizations - which the Salvation Army is - in the "protected class".

And finally, you are pretty free and loose with the emotionally laden words "homophobic hate group" to describe the Salvation Army. If they they truly were, then they most certainly wouldn't extend their services to homosexuals, right? I mean if you really hate someone, then you couldn't stand being around them. But you have no evidence of that - and in fact their policy statements make it quite clear they don't discriminate for any reason. So, how are they a "hate group" if they minister to the people you accuse them of hating.

So, made unsupported accusations about illegal political donations, irresponsibly used dispicible words like "homophobic" and "hate group" - again, unsupported. All about a religious organization. Sounds like hate speech to me.
Yep, over the top for sure.
 
Old 04-12-2012, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,595 posts, read 10,525,800 times
Reputation: 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
I know, it sucks. I really liked going to their thrift stores too. It's very hard to find any company now that doesn't involve its self politically in some way, sometimes you have to pick and choose your battles.
To clarify a common misunderstanding, Salvation Army is not a business. It is a Christian church, which does charitable work and runs thrift stores to support their mission. But first and foremost, they are a church, and some would say a rather cultish one at that. Members of the church are referred to as "soldiers" and are encouraged to give as much of their income as possible to the church. If they work for the church they are given a military rank and wear a military styled uniform. Check online for more details.
 
Old 04-13-2012, 06:24 AM
Status: "Soggy" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Jollyville, TX
2,760 posts, read 5,651,754 times
Reputation: 2152
You know I'm going to chime in here becaue I'm the one that brought SA up. I quit giving my money to them awhile back when I heard the bad press about their anti-homosexual policies. That said, I think that's a discussion for the politics or debate forums and people need to make their own decisions about the charities they support. I have seen first hand the work they do in Austin to help the homeless, and regardless of whether I agree with how the SA conducts their business, they feed and shelter peoplpe every day that are in need, so that counts for something.
 
Old 04-13-2012, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,213 posts, read 2,493,217 times
Reputation: 2175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlady View Post
You know I'm going to chime in here becaue I'm the one that brought SA up. I quit giving my money to them awhile back when I heard the bad press about their anti-homosexual policies. That said, I think that's a discussion for the politics or debate forums and people need to make their own decisions about the charities they support. I have seen first hand the work they do in Austin to help the homeless, and regardless of whether I agree with how the SA conducts their business, they feed and shelter peoplpe every day that are in need, so that counts for something.
It sure does. I think it's great they help people in need. Like I said though, I just think charities should be non-political, OR they should tell you up front "your money may go to help the homeless, it may go to an anti-gay marriage initiative. "

Anything else is bait and switch. If the girl scouts secretly used part of their proceeds from their cookie sales to fund local KKK chapters, people would be outraged and feel tricked. Do the girl scouts have a right to do that? Sure. Do people have a right to be informed about where there charitable dollars might end up? Definitely

But the salvation army works tirelessly against gay rights, and it's "hate speech" to even point that out? Why? Because we naturally expect churches to be anti-gay? They get a free pass because we don't expect any better of them?

Just be up front when you are asking for donations with what the money is going to be used for. I am not asking for the moon. Feel free to give a million dollars the the salvation army. Just be aware of what it's used for.
 
Old 04-13-2012, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,213 posts, read 2,493,217 times
Reputation: 2175
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
To clarify a common misunderstanding, Salvation Army is not a business. It is a Christian church, which does charitable work and runs thrift stores to support their mission. But first and foremost, they are a church, and some would say a rather cultish one at that. Members of the church are referred to as "soldiers" and are encouraged to give as much of their income as possible to the church. If they work for the church they are given a military rank and wear a military styled uniform. Check online for more details.
I understand. The reason I said buisness is because their thrift stores are indeed buisnesses. I was also thinking of all the other companies I am supposed to boycott with my gay dollars because they donate or campaign for anti-gay initiatives. It's quite a few, frankly, which is why I was saying "you have to pick and choose your battles".

I have always felt that it's better to deny companies my money than it is to walk in a picket line. That is why I boycott early and boycott often. I don't think there is anything wrong with making people aware of the political leanings of a company and then letting them decide if they want to support that or not. No guilt, just letting them know.
 
Old 04-13-2012, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
8,738 posts, read 18,038,056 times
Reputation: 3553
It is sometimes amusing to jump to the end of a long thread (after not following it initially) and try to guess how we got to this point...

It seems the 'catch' to Austin is that the salvation army is homophobic .

Sorry, don't mean to derail the conversation....
 
Old 04-13-2012, 08:39 AM
 
2,300 posts, read 3,395,587 times
Reputation: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
I was also thinking of all the other companies I am supposed to boycott with my gay dollars because they donate or campaign for anti-gay initiatives. It's quite a few, frankly, which is why I was saying "you have to pick and choose your battles".
This is probably a topic for a different thread and forum, but just curious, is Chick-fil-A on your exception list? I love Chick-fil-A, but I do have some gay friends that boycott it. My toddler loves it way too much for us to stop going there. Hopefully your efforts will help to change things so I can go to Chick-fil-A guilt free in the future. I don't go there by myself anymore, but I can't deny my toddler his chicken nuggets.
 
Old 04-13-2012, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
461 posts, read 625,562 times
Reputation: 329
It's the problem of scale and easy access to information.

If we all lived in villages and the local shopkeeper was a well-known homophobe, you might think twice about patronizing him because you had a pretty good idea about his agenda.

Now imagine that it's not the shopkeeper but the shopkeeper's part-time counter clerk. You're still indirectly subsidizing an agenda you don't approve of, but not quite on the same scale as when it was the owner.

Now scale that up to thousands of people working for an organization that has a very broad mission. Also distinguish between political support for a controversial cause and active support for harassment (your KKK analogy). If I were homeless, I really don't think I'd care what the organization helping me out thought of my sexual preferences, and in the same manner I have a difficult time justifying an organization-wide boycott of Christian institutions simply because I don't share their politics (and am not a Christian).

This is true if and only if we are talking about speech. If the SA wants to spend money lobbying in favor of things like the Defense of Marriage Act, and they're going to take a couple pennies on the dollar to do that, I don't agree with it but I feel like I'm not the one paying the price for taking away the other 98 pennies on the dollar that were going to help somebody who needs it. It's a tough question. I suppose there are perfectly legit alternatives to the SA that don't spend anything lobbying for stuff I don't like, but ... am I also supposed to terminate my relationships with Christians who don't support gay marriage? I like to turn their own phrase back at them: hate the sinner, not the sin!
 
Old 04-13-2012, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,213 posts, read 2,493,217 times
Reputation: 2175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquitaine View Post
am I also supposed to terminate my relationships with Christians who don't support gay marriage? I like to turn their own phrase back at them: hate the sinner, not the sin!
Of course not. I wouldnt do that. But I don't give them money either. There is a difference between chatting with someone on the street or being friendly with someone, then there is to giving them money.

If the Salvation Army teamed up with Habitat for Humanity and wanted to build houses for the homeless, I would be there in a second. If the Salvation Army wanted to open a soup kitchen for the homeless, I would volunteer. If a member of the Salvation Army wanted to go into a voting booth and vote for all gays to be sent to the moon, then they could do that too. More power to them. I can be friendly, cordial, and tolerant of people I don't agree with.

When the Salvation Army stands on the street corner at Christmas, and says "Please remember those less fortunate than you, Please give money to help the homeless" and then a portion of the money they took from you (by playing on your guilt during the holiday season) then gets sent to New Zealand to fund advertising campaigns that say gays are dangerous to children, that gays are more likely to contract and spread diseases, that if you allow gay marriage to occur than society as we know it will fall.....then I get a little miffed. Because I thought I was helping the homeless, and in fact I was helping buy an ad in a newspaper that said "Gays are more likely to molest children".

And Yes, this has gone slightly off topic, but it's 178 posts long, and there is going to be some variation in the conversation. I am sorry if people are miffed at that, it's just that I saw someone mention donating to the salvation army CHARITY, and I was surprised because I thought it was common knowledge that they are a political organization.

And no, I don't eat at Chik-Fil-A. I like waffle fries, but not enough to give my money to an anti-gay organization.

Of course, I don't fault people who eat at chik-fil-a. I don't hate people that donate to the Salvation Army. I have not once in this conversation said "If you give money to these companies you must be a homophobe or a bad person!" The only thing I have done is warn people, who might not have otherwise known, the truth behind these companies. If people don't believe my warnings, fine. If people believe them, but don't think it's that big a deal, fine. If people think it's a big deal, but there are only so many places that they can boycott and the salvation army doesn't make the cut, fine.

You can still be a good person and give money to the Salvation Army. I wish you would give it to someone else, but it's YOUR money, and I am not going to spit on you in the street because of it. I just don't see what's wrong with saying "Hey, did you know the Salvation Army does this and that....". But of course, that's hate speech.
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