Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Oh jeez, who are these extremists that are trying to cram all jobs into the CBD? This all stems from your denial of the realities and consequences of sprawl. Spare us the blame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EverythingChanges
Thanks for the link to that article. I find it to be very poorly written and full of mangled attempts at logic, succeeding best at attacking others whose views don't fit those of the author. So much vitriol!
Not a fault of only one side of the issue, huh?
And who is the one in denial of the causes of sprawl? Like all extremists, you are convinced you are on the side of the angels, and those opposed to you are the devil incarnate. It may make you sleep better at night, and it may make you like yourself better, but it doesn't make your side the exclusive possessors of the truth. Yea, the Silicon Labs deal was in '96. The Wildflower Commons deal was last year - which would have added jobs near residential, so I'm again not sure what your point is. The same extremists blocked both - and continue to oppose any effort to bring office near the existing residential SW. You can't have it both ways - hate "sprawl" (which is really just a dog whistle for about ten other things you extremists really hate) while blocking the expansion of jobs outside the CBD - in all directions.
1. Austin cannot control sprawl beyond its borders and is somewhat limited even within borders, owing to the extreme anti-regulatory nature of Texas which places restrictions on the power of municipalities. On top of that, Austin has been singled out by the state legislature a few times for targeted legislation aimed at curbing the city's attempts to influence how land is developed. The most recent example of this is the state's interference in local control of the Barton Springs recharge zone and aquifers in general.
2. There is hope on the horizon --- according to a recent article in The Atlantic, the pendulum is swinging back in favor of cities and away from suburbs. There are even some predictions that suburbs in the future may find themselves stranded, as demand for detached homes far from urban amenities shrinks along with family size.
3. There is more hope already here --- suburbs around the nation are already becoming hotbeds of diversity and are learning how to act like core cities in terms of providing amenities, although the problem of car-centric layout and predominantly low density remains as these are difficult to retroactively correct.
I think we'll continue to see a great deal of infill, and everyone will complain about it when it happens within a mile of their home or any place where they don't want to see change for any reason. I think it's exciting, messy, chaotic, uncontrollable, and it keeps me on the edge of my seat, eagerly waiting to see what happens next. This is a fun and interesting place to live.
Well, from my personal observations in my neck of the suburban woods, there are more people moving here each day. I've watched my little haven of nowhere quintuple in size in only a matter of years so that it is now pretty darn dense, much to my chagrin. There will always be a demand for a suburban lifestyle for whatever reason. Cost, desire to be 'away', family. It may ebb and flow, but again it's all about lifestyle and what matters to the individual. There is no "right" lifestyle. You couldn't pay me to live in an expensive shoebox in a dense urban environment ever again. There are plenty of people who feel that their acreage in Georgetown is this close to heaven.
As for the surburban cities themselves? They are all doing a pretty great job in trying to provide various amenities to their residents so that money stays local. The Cedar Park event center, the upcoming Pflugerville water park, large shopping mixed use complexes (i.e. La Frontera and Stone Hill Towne Center, which I believe are more than just "strip malls"), lots of parks and recreation.. we really only come into Austin to work and a few select attractions. Most of our rec life is centered in Pflugerville, Round Rock, Cedar Park and Georgetown.
So, on the contrary, the Austin surburban cities will not become wastelands. The nice thing about the area is that they offer perspective transplants options.
And who is the one in denial of the causes of sprawl? Like all extremists, you are convinced you are on the side of the angels, and those opposed to you are the devil incarnate. It may make you sleep better at night, and it may make you like yourself better, but it doesn't make your side the exclusive possessors of the truth. Yea, the Silicon Labs deal was in '96. The Wildflower Commons deal was last year - which would have added jobs near residential, so I'm again not sure what your point is. The same extremists blocked both - and continue to oppose any effort to bring office near the existing residential SW. You can't have it both ways - hate "sprawl" (which is really just a dog whistle for about ten other things you extremists really hate) while blocking the expansion of jobs outside the CBD - in all directions.
You pulled one lousy example out of the fishbowl, yet there are several employers and commercial space out there to counter your wack theory. So, are you saying that there isn't enough commercial dev in beautiful SW Austin? Shall we turn it all into corporate canyons, for the sake of easy commutes for those in CC, et al? Is a medium somewhere btwn not healthy? Yeah, I bet if I worked and lived down south, CC would rock. On the other hand, if I took or kept a job that forced me DT or further north, and I didn't want to transplant my family, boy, I bet that would suck living down there. It happens.
And no I don't "hate" sprawl. I just choose to sidestep it as much as possible and I'm realistic in acknowledging that it comes at a price. I pay several times more in prop taxes/sq foot than my suburban brethren, and they spend more time in their vehicles. In some way, everybody ponies up. I'll gladly take the former.
Lose the extremist, urban jihad conspiracy theory. Those who are resistant to infill, while living further out are truly more fringe than any urbanite. You can cherish your ideology, but don't act like suburbs are economically independent and pay for themselves or eventually start pumping ROI back. We all pay for the infrastructure spread out there.
Lose the extremist, urban jihad conspiracy theory. Those who are resistant to infill, while living further out are truly more fringe than any urbanite. You can cherish your ideology, but don't act like suburbs are economically independent and pay for themselves or eventually start pumping ROI back. We all pay for the infrastructure spread out there.
Who's the one that is "resistant to infill"? Certainly not the guy that wants a blend of commercial, office, and residential throughout the metro area.
And your are either willfully ignorant, or part of the extremists, if you think there ISN'T a jihad directed at SW Austin. Which is it? Because somebody is keeping schools from being expanded to meet growth, offices from being built, roads from being built. Nobody ever said there was a "extremist, urban jihad", but there IS an anti-SW extremist cabal. It is that cabal that opposes any density - then, urbanists can sit back and cluck disapprovingly about "sprawl". Don't like it? Then oppose the extremists - can't have it both ways.
Who's the one that is "resistant to infill"? Certainly not the guy that wants a blend of commercial, office, and residential throughout the metro area.
And your are either willfully ignorant, or part of the extremists, if you think there ISN'T a jihad directed at SW Austin. Which is it? Because somebody is keeping schools from being expanded to meet growth, offices from being built, roads from being built. Nobody ever said there was a "extremist, urban jihad", but there IS an anti-SW extremist cabal. It is that cabal that opposes any density - then, urbanists can sit back and cluck disapprovingly about "sprawl". Don't like it? Then oppose the extremists - can't have it both ways.
Poor SW Austin. All barrels are squarely pointed at you. "Why can't we have just one more school, office bldg or road. It'll all be fine afterwards, and we won't cry for more. Promise *fingers crossed*!" That insatiable appetite for growth shouldn't be infinitely met at the expense of central Austin. Sorry. Not a planner by any stretch, but I don't think suburban greenfield equates to urban infill. That said, I agree that there are forms of smart growth on the edge, and CC does have strong examples of that self-contained village going for it. It just has to be kept in check. Just like all the urban initiatives do too.
Do you really feel that COA is holding SW Austin back from flourishing, while trying to protect the natural beauty that draws many there to begin with? Would you rather see all forms of growth being met unimpeded, eventually gobbling up all the landscape?
As far as "liking" it, I could care less. That's why I don't live there, and yeah, my interests are in my immediate radius. Surprised?
I am sure glad as a native of Austin I never read this in its entirety. I missed too much music, too many beautiful women, a lot of great food, and a bunch of happy people.
Carry on with your whining. I will now pay a $200 utility bill because it was hot last month and face some ugly driving habits at work. Then I will I dress down tomorrow night and drink beer at Saxon Pub or Antoines.
Have a good life unhappy in Austin and travel safe. I hope you find a nice, happy place. Travel safe and know your directions.
Background: This post is aimed at single 20-30 somethings who make a decent living. I have spent at least 26 of the past 30 years in Austin. I loved growing up here and love things about this city. I spent 2 years in Raleigh and 2 years in San Diego. UT grad (Both undergrad BS and MBA). I have a good job for someone my age that requires a bit of travel, amazing fiancee. I dress professionally and like nice, polished, quality things, yet I have a subtle weird side to me. This is why I am moving from Austin (pardon the punctuation/grammar).
Traffic: It is horrendous. Yes, I have spent drive time in LA, Houston, Jersey (even in Spain and interior Mexico plus Peru). It doesn't compare. First, The IH-35 corridor is one of the most congested arteries in the U.S. Second, Austin has no "loop" that circles the city. Loop 1 (wait...you mean MoPac), it is terrible from 645-930am and 200pm to 630pm (ON GOOD DAYS)...Both north and south. 360 (wait...Capitol of Texas) even worse. 2222 (wait Northland, woops, Allandale, Shoot, Koening, FML, Bull Creek Rd...) is our official east-west road..HAHAHA... It has even started to get congested on weekends. Traffic generally doesn't bother me because I work remote, but I still loathe to drive if needed. It's sad because I honestly loved driving 360 in high school and undergrad. It really is a scenic road. Which brings me to...
Infrastructure: Way back in pre-historic times,Austin was built with the rivers in mind. Congress Avenue ran North and south from the Capitol to Town Lake (No, I will not call it Lady Bird Lake). The streets and avenues were numbered differently. AND, Austin was actually one of the first cities in Texas to have a trolley system (you can still see the faint outlines of tracks). Of course, wonderful little Austin grew-up big and strong, but with it the city-planners became worse and worse. CapMetro is a flat joke. Horribly managed and wasteful. We still have no loop, and the toll roads are good for those outside of Austin. The bus system is decent but has had a string of problems the past 10 years. I've sat in on numerous city meetings for undergrad, then out of curiousity, I attended some in my free time. In my opinion, no one knows what the hell they are doing at City Hall. A majority (if not all) of city council are people from "other" cities who think that their degrees and experience from these places will just work in Austin...Well, it doesn't. The train to nowhere is an utter failure. It was a 2025 plan for some sort of lightrail, now, it is a 2050 plan for some sort of train/rail mix. I am sorry for you that will have to face this construction. Kind of sad really. There are many reasons for the terrible infrastructure, but a weak city council should be the tip of the spear; it is but a dull knife. The taxis have a duopoly of sorts on this city. I won't name company names, but try and start your own cab service and see how it turns out. Not that the pedi-cabs are any better. They congest the roads further. Don't even get me started on the cyclists that neither use nor care about rules of the road. Very rarely do I see even an arm signal.
Culture: Dear Lord, I remember when being different was cool. Now, it is cliche. I have absolutely no problem getting a little weird and doing my own thing. I actually embrace the freedom. HOWEVER, people are getting snobby about it. It is becoming a very small Los Angeles (no offense, I like Los Angeles). For instance, I went to a bar on the east side of I35 just to check it out. I have never been afraid to go into any bar wearing my typical jeans, button down combo. Should've dressed grungier...I get in there and some hipster wanna-be walks up to me, points, and claims that this "isn't my type of bar." I'm thinking, *Thanks hipbropotamos. It doesn't take a PhD to figure that out* I keep drinking my beer quietly and the guys comes up again lauging Moderator cut: profanity I shrug it off hoping this guy isn't from Austin...oh wait...he isn't from Austin. That's the problem. Austin has become such a transient city that there is nothing to hold it together. The glue is coming apart. Ya'll just don't see it yet. Speaking of transients...I am growing concerned about the homeless/vagrant culture in Austin. I worked at a church off of the drag for community service. The amount of needles and filth that I found was appalling. I do not understand why this city tolerates such mess. Why doesn't Austin move these schnorrers out? (I understand some people are vagrants because they have mental disabilities etc. This comment is not aimed at those that cannot provide for themselves but those that can and choose not to..I'm not that much of an Moderator cut: profanity) Finally, fix Barton Springs. Please fix it. It is so grimy and smells like dirty feet and onion rings.
Costs: It's expensive for people 20-35 and single (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RR/CEDAR PARK/ANY SURROUNDING AREA). Because so many people want to move to Austin, apartment costs are God awful. Compare Gaslamp in SD or Venice Beach or Lincoln Park or parts of Manhattan and San Fran to downtown Austin...It's similar. Do it. Go to Aparment Finder and really do some research. You'll be surprised at what you find. $1300-1500 and up for a 1 bedroom in downtown Austin is a minimum at a decent place. Housing is a different monster, but this post isn't aimed at family housing. The gas prices are high as well. I just drove from Dallas this past week and found gas at 3.03/gal for reg. unleaded. Austin is ~$3.17 on average. Google it. Also, don't shop at Whole Foods if you want to save money. Don't do it. Central Market/Sprouts has similar quality yet at lower costs (not trying to hate, just cost-comparing).
Entertainment/Nightlife: I'm going to get flamed for this and that's okay. The nightlife and entertainment has changed significantly. Once upon a time, 6th street between congress and I35 (aka dirty 6th) was the place to go. It was the "live music capital of the world!" You could drink on the streets and there was live music galore. Then, in 2001, there was a riot during Mardis Gras. People threw newspaper stands through windows and tear gas was shot (I was there. It was an experience). After, the city cracked down they blocked off the street (which is a good idea), and far more attention is paid to the area. Not any longer. The area is ridden with college bars and bars that focus on lower income demographic (again just observations) Which is fine. It quarantines this market segment to it's own little area. However, it is dangerous. Crime rates have gone up. Check it on APD website (look at non-indexed vs. indexed crime rates now compare that to the census count and increase by zipcode...starting to get it? good job). Now, go east of I35 and you're going to find trendy hipster bars for the most part. These aren't bad, but make sure to wear your keds, skinny jeans, plaid button-down, 70s jacket and you're set (again, no hate, just observations). There is some amazing food on the eastside (ES showroom, Franklins, Justines, Blue Dahlia, Juan in a...That's all suggestions you get from me : ) South Congress is the same hipstery feel. A couple of good food places, but more shopping than actual dining...Except for Food Trucks. These truly are hit-or-miss and some are pricey. Remember, you are paying for a novelty, and you can easily spend $10-12 on a single meal to sit outside on a bench and not be waited on. Fine for a nice day...which rarely comes (I'll get into weather in a second). Anyway, It is not as if there are any nice clubs/bars in Austin...wait maybe 1 or 2 I can think of. Austin isn't polished like Dallas/Chicago/Manhattan...which is unfortunate if you want a change. As I've gotten older, I've realized that sometimes it can be pleasant to go to a nice place and have a drink. It just doesn't happen in Austin. "Upscale" is not found here (Perry's, Roaring Fork, Eddie V's, Driskill, and a few others are about it...for the whole city...You could throw Uchi and few others in, but none are NYC-LA nice). Moving on, there are maybe 5 smaller musuems and the Long Center...plus UT have some decent performances for arts but nowhere near what you would think from the 13th largest city in the nation. I thought Austin is Artsy and Hip? ACL has some good performances, but the venue is a terrible music venue based on what they spent. The ACL festival and SXSW have become mainstream to the point of abandonment. I have gone to ACL fest every year...only went 1 day this year and was happy. HOWEVER, I could not believe they allow toddlers and children in to the fest still. I witnessed a kid getting kicked over by a drunken festival go'er. It made me sick to see the levels of stupidity (both parent and fest go'er were at fault. Disgusting). Moderator cut: profanity That's not what ACL is about. Get kids out. What about SXSW you ask? SXSW is a ripoff. But wait, there is "free stuff." Yes, there is "free stuff," but if you have a real job where you can't take vacation in the middle of March (awesome if you can), then you can't wait hours in line for such "free stuff." Again not what Austin is supposed to be. F1....Oh dear God....I love $12 BEERS! I really wouldn't mind $12 beers at a air conditioned place where I was being waited on hand and foot...but wait...it's Austin. Even F1 wasn't truly "upscale." Yes, they turned 1-3 venues into high roller clubs for F1 , and I'll give them that...but I thought F1 was a little better than that. Austin is losing it's "weird" it really is. I'm sad.
Weather, Allergies, etc.: It is freaking hot here. Austin has the same latitude as Cairo, Egypt. It is semi-arid and has been getting hotter over the past decade. I love the heat, so I'm down for some sun. However, don't even think about getting your scarf out (we laugh at those people). It would be nice to get maybe a month of snow...just one. H*ll, it would be nice to get seasons. That is what I truly miss about the east coast. The seasons. You have hot or cold here. That is all. Furthermore, the allergens are terrible. Nearly everyone I meet who has recently moved here says, "Oh, don't worry about me. I don't have allergies ." HAHAHA...Then, they meet Mr. Elm and Mr. Ragwood. Mrs. Pollen and Juniper, or Aunt Mold and cousins Oak and Cedar. Their time will come...
Conclusion: Austin was great 5-10 years ago. Now, the public/media think it's "great." There will be an inevitable downslide in the next 1-3 years. Prices will get too high. The booming economy will slow. There will be another "cool" place to move. People will stop migrating here with great speed. Maybe then I will move back. Just maybe.
Author's note: I am actively involved socially and professionally in this community. I have performed economic and social studies both professionally and personally. I intend to neither hamper nor increase the business of any party named in this post. I support all business whether local or foreign. I am making personal, subjective observations that will hopefully spur some intelligent/humorous responses. Heck, I may actually learn something. So, bring it on people who have moved here. I'm sure you love Austin like you claim to. Now prove me wrong. It's a challenge.
So, you lived in one city for almost 30 years, and you think things are changing, and you want to move away thinking grass is greener on the other side? Do you honestly think the enemy you know is better than enemy you don't?
Sounds like you're getting old, and grumpy, and don't know how to handle being an adult.
Good luck leaving all your favorite food joints, your friends, and memories to start somewhere else. Because you're gonna need it.
I think you're in a wrong state to ask people to "prove you wrong". It's either you love it or you get out, and suffer somewhere else.
"Austin was great 5-10 years ago" when you were 20? Sure, anything is great when you're 20 to 25. I would not blame a great city if I was you, because you can't adjust correctly with your age.
I am sure glad as a native of Austin I never read this in its entirety. I missed too much music, too many beautiful women, a lot of great food, and a bunch of happy people.
Carry on with your whining. I will now pay a $200 utility bill because it was hot last month and face some ugly driving habits at work. Then I will I dress down tomorrow night and drink beer at Saxon Pub or Antoines.
Have a good life unhappy in Austin and travel safe. I hope you find a nice, happy place. Travel safe and know your directions.
Mounting evidence seems to point to suburban dev as the "wrong" lifestyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by riaelise
Well, from my personal observations in my neck of the suburban woods, there are more people moving here each day. I've watched my little haven of nowhere quintuple in size in only a matter of years so that it is now pretty darn dense, much to my chagrin. There will always be a demand for a suburban lifestyle for whatever reason. Cost, desire to be 'away', family. It may ebb and flow, but again it's all about lifestyle and what matters to the individual. There is no "right" lifestyle. You couldn't pay me to live in an expensive shoebox in a dense urban environment ever again. There are plenty of people who feel that their acreage in Georgetown is this close to heaven.
As for the surburban cities themselves? They are all doing a pretty great job in trying to provide various amenities to their residents so that money stays local. The Cedar Park event center, the upcoming Pflugerville water park, large shopping mixed use complexes (i.e. La Frontera and Stone Hill Towne Center, which I believe are more than just "strip malls"), lots of parks and recreation.. we really only come into Austin to work and a few select attractions. Most of our rec life is centered in Pflugerville, Round Rock, Cedar Park and Georgetown.
So, on the contrary, the Austin surburban cities will not become wastelands. The nice thing about the area is that they offer perspective transplants options.
It's obvious that this thread has probably outrun some participants' attention but riaelise caught mine with the bolded(my format) text above. So I won't pretend to have read through the entire thread and my response here is entirely focused on this idea that different strokes for different folks means "There is no "right" lifestyle." A statement that many reasonable people would be tempted to agree with so I seize on it with a bit of trepidation. But I think it masks obvious problems. Well, if by lifestyle you mean development and living models(the meaning that makes sense in this context).
Put simply, our current living and development practices do not capture the true cost of a suburban dev model. Water, roads, electricity, solid waste treatment are all often centralized systems whose true maintenance costs increase as they radiate out further from "centers"(be it their source or the fleet/personnel that maintain them). So, as currently implemented, suburban development seems to be unsustainable, and a very poor choice for urban(general term) growth.
Please don't get me wrong -- for those of us that prefer less density, I would hope that we could sustainably provide that option. Water can be pumped and filtered locally(within more reasonable limits than the "whatever I can access under my land" that serves as current guidance), plenty of people have experience with septic systems. But roads, electricity(I have high hopes for solar too but...) and other public investments are tougher to crack. And it would be a lot more expensive. We should be honest about those challenges and most importantly, about the failure of our current models.
Here perhaps is a better executive summary of the points I'm trying to make, The Growth Ponzi Scheme - Strong Towns I have no affiliation with this site and am quite aware of the dangers when citing internet information sources. I offer it up only as perhaps a better editorial on the points raised within this post. There may be no one right path to development, but there are most definitely wrong ones.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Now, it is cliche. I have absolutely no problem getting a little weird and doing my own thing. I actually embrace the freedom. HOWEVER, people are getting snobby about it. It is becoming a very small Los Angeles (no offense, I like Los Angeles). For instance, I went to a bar on the east side of I35 just to check it out. I have never been afraid to go into any bar wearing my typical jeans, button down combo. Should've dressed grungier...I get in there and some hipster wanna-be walks up to me, points, and claims that this "isn't my type of bar." I'm thinking, *Thanks hipbropotamos. It doesn't take a PhD to figure that out* I keep drinking my beer quietly and the guys comes up again lauging Moderator cut: profanity I shrug it off hoping this guy isn't from Austin...oh wait...he isn't from Austin. That's the problem. Austin has become such a transient city that there is nothing to hold it together. The glue is coming apart. Ya'll just don't see it yet. Speaking of transients...I am growing concerned about the homeless/vagrant culture in Austin. I worked at a church off of the drag for community service. The amount of needles and filth that I found was appalling. I do not understand why this city tolerates such mess. Why doesn't Austin move these schnorrers out? (I understand some people are vagrants because they have mental disabilities etc. This comment is not aimed at those that cannot provide for themselves but those that can and choose not to..I'm not that much of an Moderator cut: profanity) Finally, fix Barton Springs. Please fix it. It is so grimy and smells like dirty feet and onion rings.
, and I'll give them that...but I thought F1 was a little better than that. Austin is losing it's "weird" it really is. I'm sad. 
." HAHAHA...Then, they meet Mr. Elm and Mr. Ragwood. Mrs. Pollen and Juniper, or Aunt Mold and cousins Oak and Cedar. Their time will come...
Mounting evidence seems to point to suburban dev as the "wrong" lifestyle
