Light Rail Hate in Austin- please explain (Center, Cameron: 2014, city hall)

[jbarn]

Originally Posted by FalconheadWest

Most people in Dallas don't use the DART rail. I lived there for 25 years and used it once. It's not convenient. We are car people and there will be very little done until people can go without their cars.

You are correct in that most people in Dallas don't use the Dart rail, but tens of thousands of people do use it everyday and I think it would definitely be considered a great asset to the city. Just because you did not ride it, does not mean that you should generalize it as not utilized.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Where's your support for this claim? I've never seen per-passenger subsidies called out for specific routes, only for bus service as a whole.

Read it and weep. Commuter rail - $21.54 per unlinked passenger trip. Express bus - $16.28. And that is just operating expense, exclusive of capital cost.

And the point about "nanny, nanny bullfrog - you don't know what the very cost of a single route is" is just that. The profiles of the Express Bus routes are functionally identical as far as mileage, so you can't make the case that there is any significant variation in the per route cost.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

Read it and weep. Commuter rail - $21.54 per unlinked passenger trip. Express bus - $16.28. And that is just operating expense, exclusive of capital cost.

And the point about "nanny, nanny bullfrog - you don't know what the very cost of a single route is" is just that. The profiles of the Express Bus routes are functionally identical as far as mileage, so you can't make the case that there is any significant variation in the per route cost.

And by "functionally identical", you mean varying by _over 100%_

935: Tech Ridge Express: Tech Ridge to Downtown ~12 Miles
983: 193 Express: Leander to Downtown ~27 Miles!

You have no idea what the per-passenger subsidy is for those two routes (or the rest of the commuter express routes). For all you know, the per-passenger subsidy for the 983 is _higher_ than the rail.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Novacek

And by "functionally identical", you mean varying by _over 100%_

935: Tech Ridge Express: Tech Ridge to Downtown ~12 Miles
983: 193 Express: Leander to Downtown ~27 Miles!

You have no idea what the per-passenger subsidy is for those two routes (or the rest of the commuter express routes). For all you know, the per-passenger subsidy for the 983 is _higher_ than the rail.

And half the Metro Rail week day runs don't go all the way to Leander, so for all you know the per passenger COST is even higher than $21 for Leander riders. If the operating cost for bus goes up with mileage - which is the case you are making - it has to go up for rail as well.

This thing is a loser. All your nuanced justifications and rationalizations are lost on a voting public.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by ITO

Ok where to start….hmmm

When light rail, commuter rail or whatever you want to call it was first proposed here, it was done so with arrogance and complete disregard for public opinion which is pretty much how Capital Metro does everything. Aside from the millions they spend doing the studies and trying to sell it they pretty much botched it from the start. I think the arrogance of telling people they will just have to give up a lane on Lamar, because they chose to live is sprawlberg was a little over the top. In fact nobody here is going to win any arguments telling us we wrong and that you know what is best. Considering how poorly Capitol Metro is run, and how poorly our bus system works and the stuff they waste money on I concede they had an uphill battle to begin with but they just made it worse because that is what they do.

This was put to a vote as a bond issue and overwhelmingly voted down. Then CapMetro doing what they seem to do best, they proceeded on with the project without the bonds and with their own reserves, which happened to be pretty sizable since that .25% of the 8.25% of our sales tax is theirs.

It was brought up over and over prior to the vote and during the first roll out, what about a light rail route from the airport to downtown. The response I personally got at an open meeting was that was in the plans but would be the last part of the project and 25 years out. Which really seemed odd to me because if you really wanted to sell this idea and how it worked, then what better way than smooth transportation to and from the airport? Then once you have the working well and show everyone what light rail can by you can expand on it with public support, but nope that is the last thing CapMetro wants to do. But hey they know best right?

So why do we still not like it? To be fair I love light rail, commuter rail and bullet trains and having lived in Tokyo, know everything they can be and just how awesome they really are. What we have here is the clusterfork called CapMetro that built light rail on existing tracks that really does not go anywhere and has poorly connecting shuttles and an abysmal operating schedule. I live near a terminal in Cedar Park, and work near a terminal near Kramer but have no way to get from Kramer to work and back. What good is a rail if it can’t get close to your end destination? How about folks in South Austin who don’t live anywhere near it, what does it do for them?

We don’t trust CapMetro, in order to have trust there has to be competence and they have yet to show us that have anything like that. They operate with the mission statement that they know what is best and their goal it to provide transportation for the less fortunate and they don’t even do that well. When they start operating that they work for us and with a mission statement to provide a timely, convenient, and economical transportation for the working class then things will start to change.

This is the most sensible and intelligent post I've read in the whole 6 pages of replies. Thank you.

I myself am someone who usually votes against bonds, being somewhat fiscally conservative. But as a person who has spent time in Chicago, San Francisco, New York, and Montreal, I've seen first hand how much the quality of life for everyone can be improved with a great commuter and light rail system. I would absolutely support a REAL rail solution for Austin.

Unfortunately, Cap Metro doesn't have my trust, and as the poster above mentioned, they are arrogant and incompetent. The idea that they haven't planned to immediately implement rail in north and south Austin going into downtown, or the airport to downtown, shows just how idiotic they are. So people can blame the 'sprawlberg' mentality, or the Texas 'we love our cars' mentality. But the truth is there are many like me who want a solution but think Cap Metro are incompetent, and have had it proven by the ridiculous rail they have currently introduced.

When will they actually give us rail that alleviates traffic? I'm talking a station in north and south Austin, all four corners into downtown - and airport to downtown. That is the most basic and straightforward way to alleviate traffic. (Besides buses, which most people who live in the suburbs simply will not do)

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

And half the Metro Rail week day runs don't go all the way to Leander, so for all you know the per passenger COST is even higher than $21 for Leander riders. If the operating cost for bus goes up with mileage - which is the case you are making - it has to go up for rail as well.

Exactly, we just don't know. That didn't stop you from attempting to make an authoritative statement (with no justification).

The most we know is that the rail seems to be on the same order of subsidy as buses.
While also not contributing to highway congestion or wear and tear (the rail maintenance is included in that subsidy number, while the extra highway maintenance of heavy buses is not).
While also encouraging density and development (which express buses don't).

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

This is the most sensible and intelligent post I've read in the whole 6 pages of replies. Thank you.

But it's just blatantly wrong, over and over.

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

The idea that they haven't planned to immediately implement rail in north and south Austin going into downtown,

They _did_ plan it, and it got voted down.

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

or the airport to downtown, shows just how idiotic they are.

rail to the airport (currently) would be idiotic.

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Cap Metro are incompetent, and have had it proven by the ridiculous rail they have currently introduced.

It's a very successful and popular commuter rail route. Doing nothing (the other alternative) would have been incompetent.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Novacek

While also encouraging density and development (which express buses don't).

So who's the one "authoritative statement(s) (with no justification)"?

I recognize your religious fervor on this subject. I also recognize the same fervor among snake handlers. Doesn't mean it gets 51% of the vote. You can split all the hairs you want - make all the accusations you want - make all the idealistic promises you want. All the average voter cares about is "what's in it for me".

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

(Besides buses, which most people who live in the suburbs simply will not do)

Actually, express buses operating on separated lanes are quite successful in Houston, Dallas and northern Virginia.

And I completely agree with your analysis of what it will take. I lived in Germany and didn't own a car for the first year. Had a monthly pass. Walked to the commuter/subway station from home. Had a bike to get from the train to work - bus for bad wx days. Wonderful system. But probably takes more density than Austin will ever attain. The German suburbs are just as SFR "friendly" as ours, but they have links into the center city. They don't throw rocks at "sprawlburg" - they just funnel into the commuter rail system. But for Austin, the inner city density that makes multi-modal transit possible is anathema to the all powerful center city neighborhood associations. Until that changes, rail - of any type - is expensive lipstick on a pig.

No matter how much some people want it in their Christmas stocking.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

So who's the one "authoritative statement(s) (with no justification)"?

Are you _really_ going to claim that a express bus running down the highway (and not stopping) encourages development along that route (what development, billboards?) in the same way development is happening at Midtown commons, M Station, Plaza Saltillo...?

Originally Posted by scm53

Doesn't mean it gets 51% of the vote.

Which has precisely bupkis to do with whether the statements you make are factually correct.