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I do invite everyone to really watch a 4-way stop for a while. If you did you'd see that nobody actually stops at them if there is not a car coming from the cross street. Seriously any stop sign enforcement project like Weatherguy suggested would have the police writing up 99 cars for every biker. It isn't a cyclist problem it is a road user problem.
I don't think I've had a ride where I don't end up in a "no you go" wave off with a car driver where they have the right of way and I've already come to a full stop. Also I've been honked at by someone behind me when I come to a stop, which is pretty amusing. Myself I come to a stop as required by law, but that does not include putting my foot down most of the time.
Solutions: Idaho stops are a good "everybody wins" solution for lightly traveled 4-way stops, as is the city putting in stoplight sensors which cyclists can trigger (they have been doing this), publicising where to put your bike to trigger it (they have not been doing this), and making them not take forever to turn the light (oh my have they not been doing that). Taking car/bike collisions seriously would be a real start as well, both in tracking down cyclists who hit and run and prosecuting drivers who maim or kill through their stupidity (right now they get a "failure to yield" fine at worst). Having an accurate picture of where collisions happen also would allow the city to fix problem areas and intersections.
I think lax enforcement in Austin has allowed impulsive, self-absorbed driving and cycling to exponentially increase over the past few years. I suppose licensing would be fair enough for bicycles given that they use the roads too. However, If I called the cops every time I saw a cyclist blow through stop signs on Shoal Creek Blvd, I would be on the phone a great deal.
I, personally, am more of the opinion that cyclist should be restricted to bicycle lanes and cannot ride on roadways without them and should be subject to criminal fines for violating such restrictions
That'd be fine, now let's just paint bike lanes onto every street in Austin.
I do invite everyone to really watch a 4-way stop for a while. If you did you'd see that nobody actually stops at them if there is not a car coming from the cross street. Seriously any stop sign enforcement project like Weatherguy suggested would have the police writing up 99 cars for every biker. It isn't a cyclist problem it is a road user problem.
I don't think I've had a ride where I don't end up in a "no you go" wave off with a car driver where they have the right of way and I've already come to a full stop. Also I've been honked at by someone behind me when I come to a stop, which is pretty amusing. Myself I come to a stop as required by law, but that does not include putting my foot down most of the time.
Solutions: Idaho stops are a good "everybody wins" solution for lightly traveled 4-way stops, as is the city putting in stoplight sensors which cyclists can trigger (they have been doing this), publicising where to put your bike to trigger it (they have not been doing this), and making them not take forever to turn the light (oh my have they not been doing that). Taking car/bike collisions seriously would be a real start as well, both in tracking down cyclists who hit and run and prosecuting drivers who maim or kill through their stupidity (right now they get a "failure to yield" fine at worst). Having an accurate picture of where collisions happen also would allow the city to fix problem areas and intersections.
This would perhaps be because of the much larger number of cars than bicycles on the road, period?
From the OP, the very first sentence, by the way, which bicyclists who are doing the, "But, Mom, the CARS are doing it!" argument ignored:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherguy
This is not intended to say cyclists are any worse than 4-wheel vehicle traffic violations. The difference is that cyclists are much more prone to injury due to not being protected by a vehicular structure. And that should be a concern for us all, since we have friends, loved ones, and co-workers who are cyclists.
Anyway, not a day goes by that I don't see a cyclist blazing through stop signs and red lights in Austin. This not only endangers their lives but also those of others. Today, a cyclist went through a 4-way stop sign in my neighborhood, causing the 4 cars trying to get through the intersection to become confused and out of sync.
Honking horns at cyclists seems to result in their providing the finger close to 100 percent of the time, and sometimes laughter on the part of the cyclist. So, is there anything that can be done? They can't be identified because they are not required to have a license plate. Trying to stop them is probably not a good idea, as you don't know who they are or what they are capable of (same goes for drivers). There's really no way to report them. I've never seen a cyclist stopped by police, but it would be interesting to know how many tickets police issue to cyclists in a month.
Any ideas on how to constructively handle this problem? It is not my intention for this thread to be a drive vs cyclist thread. The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas to solve this problem.
So, what is being argued against is that, in essence, bicyclists who use the road should be held to the SAME responsibilities as automobiles and motorcycles, and should be responsible for the consequences of their own actions, just like motorists and motorcyclists are, when caught. It's just harder to CATCH bicyclists because they are not easily identifiable via a license plate like the other users of the road are, and they seem to really really really not want to be (at least, most of the more vocal ones don't want to be because . . . well, no good reason that wouldn't equally apply to motorists and motorcyclists).
I could go on, but it's clear that bicycles are not as harmless as those who want NO way to identify them (note in some stories the bicyclist grabbed their bike and ran to avoid the consequences of their actions) would want us to believe. And I LIKE cyclist - responsible ones, not the ones that will do anything to avoid the possibility of being held responsible. Just like, as an old biker chick, I LIKE motorcyclists - just not the ones that confuse their gonads with their bikes to the detriment of the rest of us and give bikes a bad name.
Me, too, but it's always dragged out as a bright shiny (they think) red herring whenever this is discussed.
Seriously? Motor vehicle accidents cause 30K+ deaths EVERY YEAR. And you post a handful of articles as a counter? Please, the risk isn't even fraction of the equivalent.
About registering/licensing bikes/bikers - huge cost with almost no benefit (well, maybe those bicycle licenses could be used for voting...).
In particular, I would like to point out a few things:
As a bike approaches an intersection at low speeds (generally, <10 mph), they have a long time to assess the situation. A car is generally approaching at a higher speed (assume most 4-ways are 30-35 mph roads). It is relatively easily for a bike to essentially have the same amount of time (or more) to decide whose 'turn' it is. If there are cars already at the stop sign or will be there at the same time, then the bike should stop or slow down enough (back from the stop sign) to let them go first.
I often go through a 4-way at Beckett/Convict Hill. It can be pretty busy, both with cars and cyclist (the entire area has bike lanes), but honestly, the bikes are more courteous than the cars by a wide margin. As mentioned above, their lives are at stake, even at the low speeds, whereas the drivers' are not. Yes, quite often a bike does not come to a stop and it probably PO's some drivers. But not because they were actually impacted in any way; no, they are just mad that 'that bike just broke the law!' or 'If I have to, he has to!'. But look at the alternative - each bike comes to a complete stop at the stop sign. They then go on their turn (which it probably is anyway), starting from a stop and slowly accelerating through the intersection. The other cars which would have been able to go much sooner had the bike just slowed and checked now have to wait much longer. In fact, when this happen (a bike stops), several cars usually 'jump' the biker's turn because they are just too important to wait for the bicycle.
Yes, there are bikes that blow through at high speed without stopping, but they either are a) clueless and/or have a death wish or b) have assessed the stop sign and have determined the most efficient way for everyone to get through the intersection.
Correct on all accounts. Also, Darwinism serves as a limiting factor on cyclists who blow through stop signs at high speed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainwreck20
Yes, there are bikes that blow through at high speed without stopping, but they either are a) clueless and/or have a death wish or b) have assessed the stop sign and have determined the most efficient way for everyone to get through the intersection.
This is not intended to say cyclists are any worse than 4-wheel vehicle traffic violations. The difference is that cyclists are much more prone to injury due to not being protected by a vehicular structure. And that should be a concern for us all, since we have friends, loved ones, and co-workers who are cyclists.
Anyway, not a day goes by that I don't see a cyclist blazing through stop signs and red lights in Austin. This not only endangers their lives but also those of others. Today, a cyclist went through a 4-way stop sign in my neighborhood, causing the 4 cars trying to get through the intersection to become confused and out of sync.
Honking horns at cyclists seems to result in their providing the finger close to 100 percent of the time, and sometimes laughter on the part of the cyclist. So, is there anything that can be done? They can't be identified because they are not required to have a license plate. Trying to stop them is probably not a good idea, as you don't know who they are or what they are capable of (same goes for drivers). There's really no way to report them. I've never seen a cyclist stopped by police, but it would be interesting to know how many tickets police issue to cyclists in a month.
Any ideas on how to constructively handle this problem? It is not my intention for this thread to be a drive vs cyclist thread. The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm ideas to solve this problem.
Hard to tell, but OP appears to be confusing an extremely rare phenomena, cyclists willing to dangerously speed trough intersections without stoping when traffic is present, with an extremely common one, cyclists who slow down, make a reasonable assessment of risk before opting to proceed without stopping.
The former is indeed foolish, and self limiting behavior. Very few people are willing to risk own skin on such idiocy and are not long for this world if they do. There's really no corrective action necessary here, yahoos will be yahoos.
The latter is extremely common and practiced by almost all cyclists. I do this every time I'm on my bike which is quite frequently. I do so unapologetically because 1. it is not dangerous, 2. it does not hinder drivers in any way, 3. it significantly reduces the effort required by me to cycle, and 4. it limits my time spent in intersections.
So, the former is extremely rare and self limiting, the latter is extremely common and completely acceptable. I'm not sure what the problem is exactly.
The obvious solution to me is for us to bring back more police neighborhood substations. I don’t see police anymore in the neighborhoods. Get out and interact with the public. Not just at sanctioned events, but every day in the same neighborhoods.
This behavior happens when out sourcing and decentralization becomes the priority. Cost savings is usually the mantra used, and the sheep follow blindly. It is very sad.
Excellent post.
& anyone who grew up knowing the name of a (your) neighborhood policeman knows this is a great solution to many issues.
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