Ash Trees vs Shumard Oaks (Austin, Live Oak: 2014, house, neighborhood)

[ATX Wahine]

We had two Texas Ash trees (30 ga) planted last fall. One is thriving, one is dying. They are both under warranty and we've been given options to either allow the landscaper to re-plant two new Ash trees, or upgrade to larger 45 ga Shumard Oaks. The trees are on our front lawn and receive full sun. Does anyone have experience with the two and if so, can you recommend which one is preferable? The landscaper claims that Shumards grow as fast as Texas Ash and I don't know if I believe that or not. Oaks grow beautifully here, but we wanted fast-growing shade trees and I'm just not sure if Shumards will fill that bill. They sure are beautiful, though.

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated!

[AustinDude360]

Shumards are an overall better tree. Some people call Ash Trees Trash because of their unreliability and short-lived nature.

Bear in mind that in general the faster growing tree, the weaker the wood. Shumards and Red Oaks are a good balance of faster growing and a stronger wooded tree. If you want to have your trees go fast, fertilization and proper tree selection will go further than the actual tree itself. Find out your soil make-up and drainage and pick the right tree from that. Especially with Shumards...they come from two sources here so you have to pick the one that is sourced to your pH make-up

[Trainwreck20]

Decent discussion re: the Shumard:

Plant Answers

And I know it was not one of the ones you were looking at, but we have had excellent luck with the Mexican White Oak (Monterrey Oak). Our first one we planted grew insanely fast for an oak - from a 3' sapling to a 20'+ tree in eight years. Then a car hit it and killed it .

We planted a new one, and it is growing at a similar rate.

If you are looking for a true deciduous tree (for more light in winter), the Chinquapin is a nice option that grows fairly fast, as well:
http://npsot.org/wp/boerne/publicati...ng-shade-tree/

The Chinquapin leaves are huge compared to most oaks, as are the acorns, so it adds some nice variation. We have one planted, and it has not grown nearly as fast as the Monterreys, but it had some damage from a weed-whacker when it was just a small sapling, and it has taken some years to recover, but it is doing quite well now.

[ATX Wahine]

Thank you both for the feedback! Another reason for my reluctance to plant new oaks is the amount of oak wilt starting to creep in around West Oak Hill. A neighbor one block over has some now, which is a little too close for comfort. We have about 25 oaks on our property now including a few heritage-sized ones, all in good shape, but one of the reasons why we planted Ash (even knowing their shortcomings) was to add a variety of species to our property in the event that oak wilt does (and probably will) some day strike us. We have a Chinquapin now that was partially damaged during the June 2014 storm that slammed us hard. I never thought about planting more of those, but now that I'm researching, I see that both the Mexican White Oak and the Chinquapin are both a little more resistant to oak wilt, so maybe those are good options.

Appreciate the ideas and links!

[scm53]

I love oaks. We are blessed with 3 with 30' canopies, and several smaller ones. But I understand the limitations, mainly the problems with oak wilt. Shumard Oaks are susceptible to oak wilt, and also require deep well drained soil. I'd recommend Bur Oaks, but that isn't an option you are given.

As far as Texas Ash, here's what the Austin Grow Green Guide says:

Fast growing; only Ash appropriate for Austin area; needs good drainage; relatively long life; provides nesting and cover; birds eat flowers and fruit

So, pros and cons to each. But I think the fact you'd get a 45 g Shumard, vs a 30 g Texas Ash, would point me towards the Oak.

The "fertilize" thing above is spot on. We have one container plant Live Oak, builder standard. Probably a 3" caliper when planted in 2011. Been deep root fed along with our others, along with foliar spray in the spring. It is now 5" caliper, and about twice the size of the two planted the same time across the street. That stuff does make a difference, especially if you want fast growth.

[Trainwreck20]

Yup, we have a heritage oak in our yard and part of our decision process included reducing the risk of oak wilt. While you can't eliminate the bug route of transmission, you can limit the tree root-to-tree root transmission by planting white (or non) oak trees.

The "fertilize" thing above is spot on. We have one container plant Live Oak, builder standard. Probably a 3" caliper when planted in 2011. Been deep root fed along with our others, along with foliar spray in the spring. It is now 5" caliper, and about twice the size of the two planted the same time across the street. That stuff does make a difference, especially if you want fast growth.

Agree, definitely give you trees a privileged start - water as appropriate and use either fertilizer spikes or tree-rings around the base of the trees. We also paid the local yard dude to come out and dig a 'real' hole. He ended up needing a jack hammer, but it makes it a bit easier for the tree to take quick root.

[ATX Wahine]

This is all good stuff and I really appreciate the info. Can you guys share what your fertilizer methods are? The landscaper told us to add a couple pounds of Osmocote to the top soil each December. What works for y'all??

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Nor Cal Wahine

This is all good stuff and I really appreciate the info. Can you guys share what your fertilizer methods are? The landscaper told us to add a couple pounds of Osmocote to the top soil each December. What works for y'all??

We pay a service four times a year. But our trees are worth tens of thousands of dollars, so it's worth it. Our Frankenstein container live oak is the beneficiary of a determination to keep the heritage oaks healthy. PM me and I will give you their names.

I know what you mean about the storm last June. We lost the top out of a 25' Cedar Elm. But it wasn't my call ...

[riaelise]

What is a heritage oak? sorry to ask the dumb question but the internet doesn't really give an answer...I assume it to be an old, large oak tree? We have three big oaks that tower above the house in our front yard, multi trunked, and probably the diameter of two people hugging them. Not sure how old they are, but I doubt they are less than 30 years old at that size and I don't think the builder grade ones can look like that...but I'm not sure since our neighborhood is almost 30 years old and 30 years is a long time.

I'm pretty scared of oak wilt, to be honest. Those live oaks, plus the huge red oak in the back are very valuable. Is there really any way to prevent it? Can you fertilize such huge trees? Our previous trees were the small builder versions.

I'd recommend the Mexican Sycamore. It was pretty fast growing at our old house. it drops its leaves but comes back in the spring. Seemed pretty hardy.

[Trainwreck20]

Not a bad place to read some of the city oak wilt stuff:
City Arborist | Planning | AustinTexas.gov - The Official Website of the City of Austin

For heritage tree ordinance summary:
http://www.bigreddog.com/new-city-of...ree-ordinance/

A Heritage Tree is defined as a tree that has a diameter of 24 inches or more, measured four and one-half feet above natural grade. Only specific tree species are considered to be in the Heritage Tree category. These include the Texas Ash, Bald Cypress, American Elm, Cedar Elm, Texas Madrone, Bigtooth Maple, Pecan, Walnut, and all Oak Trees.

Note that that applies only to the CoA, I think (not sure on the ETJ?).

As for age, a tree the size you are talking about is probably much, much older than 30 years and pre-dated the development. The arborist estimated that our tree (probably a 36" diameter and towers over our 2-story house) was roughly between 250-350 years old.