A Race thread (San Antonio, Austin, Portland: middle-class, salon, crimes)

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by jmacksgirl

If you are saying noone is racist in Austin, or nobody cares what color your skin is, you are one of the people that has NEVER experienced it, PERIOD. You cant bear witness for an entire city/state, only your own experience.

That is all true of course.

But the subjective experience of racism is a complicated problem that isn't just based on statistics, it's based on interpretations and the nuances of each experience. For example, if you're a Black male and you see some people cross the street when you're approaching them, you might assume that they're being racist. Maybe they needed to cross the street and that was the right moment because there was no traffic. Or maybe they were thinking "Oh lordy, look what's coming, let's get across the street before he robs us." How can you know? I'm a tall white man and people cross the street to avoid me sometimes because they SHOULD --- I look big enough to be dangerous to a smaller or weaker person.

The question is, how different is Austin from anywhere else? I believe that's the point of this thread. I cannot answer with much intelligence because the issue is SO subjective and complex.

But I want to remind those who feel constantly victimized by racism or sexism or prejudice against obesity or short people, whatever issue you struggle with --- a lot of what you think you experience is coming from your interpretations! There have been quite a few studies conducted demonstrating this.

A classic example was a study where two groups of people were sent into public, all of them thought they had a giant ugly fake mole on their foreheads but half of them had the fake mole removed without knowing it. They all spent an hour interacting with people and then reported back about their experiences. There was no significant difference between one group and the other --- they ALL thought that people were staring at them because of their big mole and they all felt like they were treated badly because of it, even the people who didn't have ANYTHING on their forehead! They were imagining negative responses based on their assumptions about how others would treat them.

Yes, there is racism. But there is also hyper-sensitivity to racism. We all are "victimized" in one way or another. Basing your world view on your status as an oppressed minority is a way to guarantee that you will live an angry, unhappy life. The universe will bring to you what you expect from it.

Now, those who feel angry at me for "not being sensitive" are going to demonstrate exactly what I mean. They assume I'm a privileged white guy and therefore my life is easy and I have it made. Hardly. I've got medical issues you wouldn't trade for, trust me on that. We ALL have problems, we all have reasons to whine about why the world isn't fair. It's NOT fair. There IS racism and it's everywhere. In fact the most racist people I've ever known were Black people next door to me in Austin who hated Hispanics and would talk about it all the time. Then when 9/11 happened they started talking extreme racism against Arabs. Racism isn't the exclusive province of the Great White Satan and African-Americans are far from being alone in being targets of racist behavior. It's a global human problem and we need to understand each other and ourselves, not close ourselves off in a defensive rage against the imagined "oppressor."

[LHBR702]

Deeptrance, I am a black woman and would tend to agree with most of what you said. A lot of racism is "perceived" and prejudice exists in many forms aside from skin color. You could be too tall, too short, too big, too small, too skinny, too fat, too whatever, the list is endless, but you must also admit that there are still places in America where a black person, mixed couple or other minorities would not "fit in", be welcomed or feel comfortable. I do think that it's difficult for anyone who hasn't experienced racism directed at them because of the color of their skin to understand that when making such a HUGE decision, it is something that you hope won't be an issue, but that you must consider and that's very unfortunate. I'm sure I speak for all minorities in saying that we wish we never had to ask the question.

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by LHBR702

...there are still places in America where a black person, mixed couple or other minorities would not "fit in", be welcomed or feel comfortable.

Like, almost everywhere. I don't deny that. I think there are two parallel issues here. One is the social/political issue of racism, which is real, tragic, a blight on humanity, and a legacy of America that we cannot dismiss because this country was partially built on the backs of slaves who were FULLY HUMAN yet treated worse than a sensitive person treats a cockroach. It's the American Holocaust, which is part of why American Jews were the only white people who joined the early stages of the civil rights movement, they knew what it meant to have a bullseye on their backs.

Originally Posted by LHBR702

I do think that it's difficult for anyone who hasn't experienced racism directed at them because of the color of their skin to understand that when making such a HUGE decision, it is something that you hope won't be an issue, but that you must consider and that's very unfortunate. I'm sure I speak for all minorities in saying that we wish we never had to ask the question.

You express yourself beautifully without inflaming. You educate, you evoke empathy and contemplation, and I truly appreciate that. I have a lot of respect for the way you've responded to me. I knew I was making a lot of controversial statements and opening myself up for criticism, and I'm so pleased to see your response because it gives me hope for humanity. I stand with you in solidarity to unite humanity while respecting and appreciating our differences.

I don't want to see the world blend into one race because I think the hidden jewel of humanity lies in our unique cultures. The problem is that most people fear that which is different from them. I want to work for a world in which we can choose to be who we want without fear, embrace our heritage, and have the individual freedom to choose to stay within our tradition or mix with other traditions. We can do all of those things without hate, or we can waste our energy on fear, mistrust, and hatred. I prefer the positive option of "Can't we all just get along?"

Coincidentally, as I type this I'm downloading about 5 GB of world music from the newsgroups There's so much out there to love, and if there's one thing I can say for Austin in this regard it's that there's a high concentration of people here who love diversity and want more of it. I want more Black people to move here.

Speaking of race and all... there's an incredibly racist policy in Austin where one of the City Council spots is "reserved" for an African-American. That, to me, is disgusting. It's like apartheid. It makes me want to vote for a totally black council with a black mayor. And I'm absolutely serious about that. The policy had its place back when it first was implemented, but come on, this is 2006, do we really need to "set aside" one special spot for just one black councilman? That's just sick. Yet this is still supported in much of the black community here, apparently because of the fear that without that token spot there would be an all-white-and-hispanic council. I pray that this isn't the truth. If it is, then Austin is stuck in the 1950s.

[LHBR702]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

You express yourself beautifully without inflaming. You educate, you evoke empathy and contemplation, and I truly appreciate that. I have a lot of respect for the way you've responded to me. I knew I was making a lot of controversial statements and opening myself up for criticism, and I'm so pleased to see your response because it gives me hope for humanity. I stand with you in solidarity to unite humanity while respecting and appreciating our differences.

Thanks SO much! I understand the reality is that racism still exists, and at the same time realize that some of the reason for it is because we (Blacks or other minorities) sometimes perceive it to be there and react to it. Sometimes negative things will happen to us or people won't like us and it won't necessarily be because of our race. Unfortunately, having been discriminated against in the past because of your race will tend to make you sensitive, sometimes hypersensitive to it in instances where it may not be the case. It goes both ways, though. Understandably, there are "undesirables" in every race and it would help the cause if others did not make determinations about all Blacks based on their negative experiences with some of us. Unless there comes a day when we are all the same color, with the same haircolor, eyes, same height, weight, same income, education, etc. there will always be a reason for SOMEONE not to like you. In the meantime, all you can really do is live your life, try to be the best person you can be and hope that people will judge you based on your character instead of the color of your skin. Gosh, I could go on...but this is a post for information on Texas so for everyone's sake, I won't

Thanks for listening and have a great day!

[AustinTraveler]

Thank you so much for your insightful contributions to this thread, not to mention the world! If everyone thought the way you do and was able to express themselves so well, this world would have far less problems.

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by LHBR702

...Unless there comes a day when we are all the same color, with the same haircolor, eyes, same height, weight, same income, education, etc. there will always be a reason for SOMEONE not to like you.

Ya know what? Even if we were all clones of each other with absolutely no differences, I've got a hunch we would still find ways to split up into groups and fight one another. This seems to be deeply rooted in human nature. Look at any high school and you see how teens naturally split themselves into little groups, using whatever means needed to differentiate themselves from one another. It might not be a bad thing --- the desire to identify with a unique group might be part of what made human civilization succeed! The problem for us to solve is how to embrace this natural tendency to be "different" and "unique" while not feeling a need to put down members of other groups, whether those other groups are Goths, Gangstas, Hippies, Preppies, Nerds, Cheerleaders, or whatever label we use for whatever self-identifying collective we're referring to. I think those variations on being a human are part of what makes life interesting and we just need to stop putting each other down. As the Canadian folk singer Bruce Cockburn says in one of his older songs:
Why don't you cool out, can it be so hard
To love yourself with thinking someone else holds a lower card?
Grow up you, Grow up me,
Grown together, Free to Be....

[jmacksgirl]

Deeptrance~

I understand what you are saying totally, and you seem to be very knowledgeable, white or not. My husband in fact is white and I have experienced racism from his family, he was shocked and had no idea they felt that way, but then again he never had any reason to know since it wasnt right in their face, ya know? I totally agree with the comment that its all in the pereception. The perception in my own family is very different per person.

I am accepting and dont have the "they are watching me in a store" or "crossing because of me" problems, but my brother, that is him all the way.

As far as Austin being the same as everywhere else, that too is relative. I have lived in several cities over the years and my experiences have ranged from nothing to note and very positive, to downright ignorant and almost a fight so it does change depending on the place, some places are more tolerant than others.

Being a black woman, I get flack from other blacks for marrying a white man, but whatever, that certainly doesnt make me "less black". I agree that the differences in people should be celebrated, I love meeting people of different colors, religions, backgrounds, I think it makes for a more educated people to learn about others, the more we learn the less we will fear. Making us all one color and the same in appearance would be extremely boring, not to mention we would just fight over who has nicer clothes , so I too believe there will always be something. I also wish the question didnt have to be asked with regard to racism, and maybe someday it wont have to be.... Sorry to be all over the place with this post!

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by jmacksgirl

...you seem to be very knowledgeable, white or not.

I know what you meant by that, but when I first read it I busted out laughing. Your wording has some alternative ways it can be interpreted.

Originally Posted by jmacksgirl

My husband in fact is white and I have experienced racism from his family, he was shocked and had no idea they felt that way, but then again he never had any reason to know since it wasnt right in their face, ya know?

Yup. Happened to my sister when she got engaged to a Black man back in the early 1970s (she's 60 now) --- my parents, who had never uttered a racist comment in our lives, sat her down and said she would be completely cut off from the family if she married him! And it was 90% purely about his race. So, yeah, behind many smiling white faces lies a lot of hidden bigotry and that's why I do all I can to make sure my bigotry is out in the open where people can call me on it and I can do something about it. Know what I mean, jelly bean? (jeez, I sound like I'm 12, no wonder I still enjoy watching the Disney channel.... but that's totally off topic )

Originally Posted by jmacksgirl

As far as Austin being the same as everywhere else, that too is relative. I have lived in several cities over the years and my experiences have ranged from nothing to note and very positive, to downright ignorant and almost a fight so it does change depending on the place, some places are more tolerant than others.

Thanks for saying that, it's important for those of us who can't experience it first-hand to learn as much as we can from those who have. I didn't mean to imply that Austin is "the same" as everywhere, just that there's racism everywhere. The way it's expressed is very open in the deep South and parts of the industrial north, but it's totally buried on the west coast in the liberal areas where it's not politically correct to be racist.

There was an interesting article in a Bay Area newspaper that discussed how much Blacks hated the covert PC racism that they felt in places like Sonoma County, and everyone interviewed for the article said they prefer that it be out in the open or not be there at all. But they hated being treated like they were "special", with white folks tip-toeing around the issue and trying so hard to be non-racist. Very awkward!

With my Black friends we've always put the issue right out front. Like my buddy Clyde will leave me messages that say things like "White boy white boy, what up, why you don't give a n---a a holla! What yo cracka a$$ doin', buyin' a Mercedes?" It's always hilarious stuff and it breaks any tension that could exist cuz he's lived the life and experienced some seriously deep racism. Also, I played keyboard in Sonoma County with an all-Black reggae/ska band back in the 80s and it was similar. A couple of them had been militant Black Panther members involved in some deep stuff in Oakland and then they changed their lives after a bomb that was supposed to go off at a Chevron refinery accidentally went off in a car and killed a couple of their friends. Yeah, that'll change your perspective I guess.... Anyway, they're totally non-violent now, otherwise I wouldn't have been hanging around with them.

Originally Posted by jmacksgirl

Being a black woman, I get flack from other blacks for marrying a white man

Yeah, every group has that pressure to marry within. It's very common. It seems to be strongest with some of the Asian immigrant communities.

Originally Posted by jmacksgirl

Making us all one color and the same in appearance would be extremely boring, not to mention we would just fight over who has nicer clothes

LOL, that's a good point! Heck, we do that anyway. It honks me off that Black people look so good in stuff that makes me look like a fool. I'm jealous! And there are just too many gorgeous Black men with perfect torsos on TV and in movies these days, it makes me feel like a wrinkled little piece of pasty-white over-cooked pasta

[jmacksgirl]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

behind many smiling white faces lies a lot of hidden bigotry and that's why I do all I can to make sure my bigotry is out in the open where people can call me on it and I can do something about it. Know what I mean, jelly bean?

OK, do you know my MIL personally!

Originally Posted by deeptrance

Thanks for saying that, it's important for those of us who can't experience it first-hand to learn as much as we can from those who have. I didn't mean to imply that Austin is "the same" as everywhere, just that there's racism everywhere. The way it's expressed is very open in the deep South and parts of the industrial north, but it's totally buried on the west coast in the liberal areas where it's not politically correct to be racist.

You hit the nail on the head for real. I never experienced it more than in the deep south and in the inner city in northern NJ (where im from), but by the same token, I have seen hate spewed at my husband from those who are the first to holla "the man is holding me down" which irks my nerve to no end.
the same people who swear everyone is out to get them shouted horrible things at my husband with my kids in the car

Originally Posted by deeptrance

There was an interesting article in a Bay Area newspaper that discussed how much Blacks hated the covert PC racism that they felt in places like Sonoma County, and everyone interviewed for the article said they prefer that it be out in the open or not be there at all. But they hated being treated like they were "special", with white folks tip-toeing around the issue and trying so hard to be non-racist. Very awkward!

That is my new and improved MIL you speak of! and I prefer the old MIL who was in my face with hers, now I have to watch my back and have the hubby try the special plate,LOL!

Originally Posted by deeptrance

With my Black friends we've always put the issue right out front. Like my buddy Clyde will leave me messages that say things like "White boy white boy, what up, why you don't give a n---a a holla! What yo cracka a$$ doin', buyin' a Mercedes?"

that is how several of my friends are, we clown and joke each other, and have an understanding which I LOVE, I tell a few of my friends when we are going somewhere that is predominantly black to wait up since they know they need their "blackup". In fact my sister commented that one of my friends was blacker than me! If you talk to this porcelain skin blue eyed blonde you would think she was a cornrow wearing hot chocolate sistah! Her neighborhood and her school was predominantly black

Originally Posted by deeptrance

it makes me feel like a wrinkled little piece of pasty-white over-cooked pasta

ooooh, so my hubby isnt alone after all??? He CANT tan, he has starting going to the gym about 6 months ago so he is trying to replace his 6-pack of honey buns with some abs, but he's mine!!!LOL

You are hilarious...

On a serious note, your knowledge is inspiring and you should think about sharing it with others not just in a forum setting. kudos to you..
ANd PS, the Disney Channel is the BOMB, I watched Cheetah girls 2 the other day, and no the kids werent here,

[carolinajack]

jmacksgirl and fiya:

thanks. often people who do not suffer prejudice(whatever the prejudice may be) say that color doesnt matter. But having grown up in the south and in Texas and being black, it sure is an issue. Its not always overt, but it is there. Ask most people and they dont have black friends if they are white or vice versa. Ask Mexican Americans or native americans if whites dont treat them poorly, they will tell you.

you cant go on the words of people who dont experience racism and whose experience with people of color is minimal.

I have lived in every area of the US from the Northeast to the SW, SE and NW and all the places i see people saying its cool to live, they never talk about the minorities. Some who say a place is really liberal, say its cause they have gay and lesbian groups--that doesnt mean the town is liberal--even the most conservative cities have gay and lesbian organizations.

one needs to look at the paper in their town, watch the news and see what people really go through. How they are treated for housing, where they have to send their kids to school, how much integration is going on in their town and esp in their neigbhorhoods. And walking a mile in the minorities shoes.

I can tell you that Austin has issues with race, just as New York does. New York is as racist as most Southern cities, it is just played out in a different way. Ask the people who are followed around in stores just because they are black. Or the fact that minorities are attacked and beaten by roving italian kids in jones beach for instance. Or that Boston has consistently been named the most racist city in America.