05-30-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
austifornian
I think you know as well as I do there is no such thing as a perfect contract that covers all bases for all sides. If there was, you would be out of business.
I'm not in the business of doing residential deals, so I'm not trying to protect anything. And I'm not saying a contract has to be perfect. I'm making the point that when an agent says "there are standard contracts so you typically don't need an attorney," they are leaving out the rest of the sentence which should say "but there are some transactions where the TREC forms (or certain provisions of the forms) are not adequate to protect your interests and I'm really not qualified to tell you whether or not this is one of them." (And I give credit to the agents and others who did mention that the forms aren't appropriate for use in some transactions, but determining which transactions those are (or which provisions of the TREC forms may not be appropriate) is outside the qualifications of an agent.)
The part of this discussion that I find ironic is that the rationale for not being represented by an attorney is that the forms have already been prepared and, by implication, the form can be trusted. Yet, the form clearly states in a couple of places that the buyer is urged to have an attorney, both to explain the contract (if the buyer doesn't understand any provisions in it) and to review the title documents.
05-30-2008, 10:16 PM
Location: Central Texas
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However, having seen the interaction between agents and attorneys many times over, I would only caution that asking an agent whether an attorney is necessary is like asking a fox whether you should have a dog guarding the hen house. Ok, maybe that is a little bit of an overstatement. But the two professions are often times at odds because of the role of each.
Going back to your first post, and reading forward, I think I get it now. You've "seen" interactions between agents and attorneys and you think the two professions are often at odds, because YOU are at odds with real estate agents because you them as treading on your turf. So the interactions you've seen "between agents and attorneys" would possibly be interactions between you and agents and the nature of them would, perhaps, be influenced by your own behavior based on that perception. If an agent didn't immediately acknowledge the superiority of the real estate attorney, for example, that could be perceived as the agent being the fox opposing the dog guarding the hen house, to use your analogy.
I do find it interesting that you made the statement above and didn't identify yourself as one of the parties you were describing in the "interactions" until asked direcctly hat dog you had in this fight.
05-30-2008, 10:59 PM
Location: DFW
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I had a client about 2 years ago who was also an attorney. We had a contract on a house and after the inspection there were a few items that he wanted to ask to be repaired. He wrote a 2 page legal document and insisted I present it to the seller which I did.
The seller freaked at all the legalese and was about to let the contract fall apart since they had no clue all the ramifications of the document and didn't want to take to an attorney to interpret.
After some discussion the sellers agent broke down the repairs into about a 5 item list that took less than a paragraph on the amendment. He simplified it so his client could understand. We got the the repairs done and everyone was happy.
The reason the TX system / TREC exisits is to keep it simple and reduce the cost to the consumer.
05-31-2008, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
TexasHorseLady
I think I get it now.
How laughable. You are quite full of yourself.
05-31-2008, 12:35 AM
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Rakin, I'm not surprised. There are a lot of people out there who don't know how to handle transactions. With your story and the numerous anecdotes on this board describing bad agents, I think we can all agree to that.
e.g.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/real-...ight=bad+agent
05-31-2008, 07:36 AM
Location: Central Texas
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How laughable. You are quite full of yourself.
Maybe - but I suspect I'm not alone in that.
It was a theory based on going back and reading the entire thread. (A practice I sometimes find useful when I get an impression while involved in a discussion and want to see where it came from and whether it might have any validity - one reason I love the internet, I can check myself that way.
)
Rakin, it is so easy to terrify the participants in a deal with legalese, and part of a real estate agent's job is to allay the panic. I agree that the Texas system is meant to alleviate that as much as possible in the every day deals (though there's still more than enough angst to go around sometimes).
In more complicated ones, attorneys are absolutely called for (as long as the agents are there to calm the fears). In fact, as we type I'm giving my clients a couple of names of real estate attorneys to look over something that needs a legal eye, because it's a situation (albeit a residential purchase) that would benefit from one.
05-31-2008, 09:48 AM
Location: DFW
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Quote:
Rakin, I'm not surprised. There are a lot of people out there who don't know how to handle transactions. With your story and the numerous anecdotes on this board describing bad agents, I think we can all agree to that.
Austin Willy - It's not me who comes off as being full of himself. To bad you have to resort to personal insults to make a point.
Is there something about the TX real Estate wanting to simplify and thus reduce contracts that you disagree with? Or should every contract on evry house sold be be drawn up by an attorney?
Wow, think how much that would cost and the time involved.
I have an MBA from the great school in Austin, been self employed for over 30 years and I bet I can explain a TREC contract to the average Joe much better than you'd be able.
By the way poor link... you've picked a 8 month old thread from someone not even in Texas.
05-31-2008, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakin
Austin Willy - It's not me who comes off as being full of himself. To bad you have to resort to personal insults to make a point.
I didn't say you're full of yourself (but I do note your chest thumping below). That was directed to another poster and her bait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakin
Is there something about the TX real Estate wanting to simplify and thus reduce contracts that you disagree with?
That's a good question. Perhaps there is a NAR rep lurking who can give us all a lesson on making things easy and better for the consumer ... well, after you've been sued the Justice Department for anticompetitive behavior. With all due respect, I don't think brokers and agents have any room to give a lecture about making the process better for the consumer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakin
Or should every contract on evry house sold be be drawn up by an attorney?
Wow, think how much that would cost and the time involved.
I didn't say that. But I will point out, again, that the TREC form contract, which apparently all agree "works," doesn't say that
sometimes an attorney should be hired. It says an attorney should be hired by the buyer. Period. Is that one of the provisions that you explain to your clients?
And as far as costs, FSBO is a lot cheaper than selling through an agent, but I don't hear you touting that. Oh wait, it's only the costs of other service providers that you recommend be cut out. Gotcha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakin
I have an MBA from the great school in Austin, been self employed for over 30 years and I bet I can explain a TREC contract to the average Joe much better than you'd be able.
I am sure you are a good salesperson. However, you cannot, by law, explain the legal ramifications of the contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakin
By the way poor link... you've picked a 8 month old thread from someone not even in Texas.
What a red herring. Surely someone as smart as you is not trying to claim there are no bad agents.
05-31-2008, 10:54 AM
Location: Central Texas
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Actually, it says: "CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Real estate licensees cannot give legal advice. If you do not understand the effect of this contract, consult an attorney BEFORE signing." (emphasis mine) Not quite the same thing, wouldn't you agree, being in a profession where how something is worded can be critical?
As I said before, I go over every paragraph with my clients to make sure they have at least looked at them. If at all possible, I send the document home with them (and, in fact, give each new buyer client a copy of the blank contract to read at their leisure before we've even found a home for them - to repeat, I don't like people signing things they haven't read, it makes me itchy). I point out to them the section referenced above and ask if they have an attorney whose information they would like placed in there. I point out the various places in the buyer's rep/listing agreement and contract that state that I am not an attorney and can't give legal advice (learned that when I was a legal assistant).
Short of refusing to write the offer for our clients and telling them they have to go to Austin-Willy (or another real estate attorney) to write it for them, what solution would you find acceptable?
05-31-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
TexasHorseLady
Actually, it says: "CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Real estate licensees cannot give legal advice. If you do not understand the effect of this contract, consult an attorney BEFORE signing." (emphasis mine) Not quite the same thing, wouldn't you agree, being in a profession where how something is worded can be critical?
You're right, TexasHorseLady. That is
one of the places in the contract that urges the buyer to involve an attorney. Another says:
"... the [title] commitment should be promptly reviewed by an attorney of Buyer's choice ..."
There is no similar "if you don't understand" phrase in that provision. I'm sure, as a seasoned agent, you are familiar with that provision and emphasise it to your clients.
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People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)