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Old 05-30-2008, 03:17 PM
 
1,151 posts, read 2,984,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austifornian View Post
I think you know as well as I do there is no such thing as a perfect contract that covers all bases for all sides. If there was, you would be out of business.
I'm not in the business of doing residential deals, so I'm not trying to protect anything. And I'm not saying a contract has to be perfect. I'm making the point that when an agent says "there are standard contracts so you typically don't need an attorney," they are leaving out the rest of the sentence which should say "but there are some transactions where the TREC forms (or certain provisions of the forms) are not adequate to protect your interests and I'm really not qualified to tell you whether or not this is one of them." (And I give credit to the agents and others who did mention that the forms aren't appropriate for use in some transactions, but determining which transactions those are (or which provisions of the TREC forms may not be appropriate) is outside the qualifications of an agent.)

The part of this discussion that I find ironic is that the rationale for not being represented by an attorney is that the forms have already been prepared and, by implication, the form can be trusted. Yet, the form clearly states in a couple of places that the buyer is urged to have an attorney, both to explain the contract (if the buyer doesn't understand any provisions in it) and to review the title documents.

 
Old 05-30-2008, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,178,837 times
Reputation: 24736
However, having seen the interaction between agents and attorneys many times over, I would only caution that asking an agent whether an attorney is necessary is like asking a fox whether you should have a dog guarding the hen house. Ok, maybe that is a little bit of an overstatement. But the two professions are often times at odds because of the role of each.

Going back to your first post, and reading forward, I think I get it now. You've "seen" interactions between agents and attorneys and you think the two professions are often at odds, because YOU are at odds with real estate agents because you them as treading on your turf. So the interactions you've seen "between agents and attorneys" would possibly be interactions between you and agents and the nature of them would, perhaps, be influenced by your own behavior based on that perception. If an agent didn't immediately acknowledge the superiority of the real estate attorney, for example, that could be perceived as the agent being the fox opposing the dog guarding the hen house, to use your analogy.


I do find it interesting that you made the statement above and didn't identify yourself as one of the parties you were describing in the "interactions" until asked direcctly hat dog you had in this fight.
 
Old 05-30-2008, 10:59 PM
 
Location: DFW
40,919 posts, read 48,833,863 times
Reputation: 54900
I had a client about 2 years ago who was also an attorney. We had a contract on a house and after the inspection there were a few items that he wanted to ask to be repaired. He wrote a 2 page legal document and insisted I present it to the seller which I did.

The seller freaked at all the legalese and was about to let the contract fall apart since they had no clue all the ramifications of the document and didn't want to take to an attorney to interpret.

After some discussion the sellers agent broke down the repairs into about a 5 item list that took less than a paragraph on the amendment. He simplified it so his client could understand. We got the the repairs done and everyone was happy.

The reason the TX system / TREC exisits is to keep it simple and reduce the cost to the consumer.
 
Old 05-31-2008, 12:25 AM
 
1,151 posts, read 2,984,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
I think I get it now.
How laughable. You are quite full of yourself.
 
Old 05-31-2008, 12:35 AM
 
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Rakin, I'm not surprised. There are a lot of people out there who don't know how to handle transactions. With your story and the numerous anecdotes on this board describing bad agents, I think we can all agree to that.

e.g. http://www.city-data.com/forum/real-...ight=bad+agent
 
Old 05-31-2008, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,178,837 times
Reputation: 24736
How laughable. You are quite full of yourself.

Maybe - but I suspect I'm not alone in that. It was a theory based on going back and reading the entire thread. (A practice I sometimes find useful when I get an impression while involved in a discussion and want to see where it came from and whether it might have any validity - one reason I love the internet, I can check myself that way. )

Rakin, it is so easy to terrify the participants in a deal with legalese, and part of a real estate agent's job is to allay the panic. I agree that the Texas system is meant to alleviate that as much as possible in the every day deals (though there's still more than enough angst to go around sometimes).

In more complicated ones, attorneys are absolutely called for (as long as the agents are there to calm the fears). In fact, as we type I'm giving my clients a couple of names of real estate attorneys to look over something that needs a legal eye, because it's a situation (albeit a residential purchase) that would benefit from one.
 
Old 05-31-2008, 09:48 AM
 
Location: DFW
40,919 posts, read 48,833,863 times
Reputation: 54900
Quote:
Rakin, I'm not surprised. There are a lot of people out there who don't know how to handle transactions. With your story and the numerous anecdotes on this board describing bad agents, I think we can all agree to that.
Austin Willy - It's not me who comes off as being full of himself. To bad you have to resort to personal insults to make a point.

Is there something about the TX real Estate wanting to simplify and thus reduce contracts that you disagree with? Or should every contract on evry house sold be be drawn up by an attorney?

Wow, think how much that would cost and the time involved.

I have an MBA from the great school in Austin, been self employed for over 30 years and I bet I can explain a TREC contract to the average Joe much better than you'd be able.

By the way poor link... you've picked a 8 month old thread from someone not even in Texas.
 
Old 05-31-2008, 10:45 AM
 
1,151 posts, read 2,984,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
Austin Willy - It's not me who comes off as being full of himself. To bad you have to resort to personal insults to make a point.
I didn't say you're full of yourself (but I do note your chest thumping below). That was directed to another poster and her bait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
Is there something about the TX real Estate wanting to simplify and thus reduce contracts that you disagree with?
That's a good question. Perhaps there is a NAR rep lurking who can give us all a lesson on making things easy and better for the consumer ... well, after you've been sued the Justice Department for anticompetitive behavior. With all due respect, I don't think brokers and agents have any room to give a lecture about making the process better for the consumer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
Or should every contract on evry house sold be be drawn up by an attorney?

Wow, think how much that would cost and the time involved.
I didn't say that. But I will point out, again, that the TREC form contract, which apparently all agree "works," doesn't say that sometimes an attorney should be hired. It says an attorney should be hired by the buyer. Period. Is that one of the provisions that you explain to your clients?

And as far as costs, FSBO is a lot cheaper than selling through an agent, but I don't hear you touting that. Oh wait, it's only the costs of other service providers that you recommend be cut out. Gotcha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
I have an MBA from the great school in Austin, been self employed for over 30 years and I bet I can explain a TREC contract to the average Joe much better than you'd be able.
I am sure you are a good salesperson. However, you cannot, by law, explain the legal ramifications of the contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
By the way poor link... you've picked a 8 month old thread from someone not even in Texas.
What a red herring. Surely someone as smart as you is not trying to claim there are no bad agents.
 
Old 05-31-2008, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,178,837 times
Reputation: 24736
Actually, it says: "CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Real estate licensees cannot give legal advice. If you do not understand the effect of this contract, consult an attorney BEFORE signing." (emphasis mine) Not quite the same thing, wouldn't you agree, being in a profession where how something is worded can be critical?

As I said before, I go over every paragraph with my clients to make sure they have at least looked at them. If at all possible, I send the document home with them (and, in fact, give each new buyer client a copy of the blank contract to read at their leisure before we've even found a home for them - to repeat, I don't like people signing things they haven't read, it makes me itchy). I point out to them the section referenced above and ask if they have an attorney whose information they would like placed in there. I point out the various places in the buyer's rep/listing agreement and contract that state that I am not an attorney and can't give legal advice (learned that when I was a legal assistant).

Short of refusing to write the offer for our clients and telling them they have to go to Austin-Willy (or another real estate attorney) to write it for them, what solution would you find acceptable?
 
Old 05-31-2008, 11:25 AM
 
1,151 posts, read 2,984,287 times
Reputation: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
Actually, it says: "CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. Real estate licensees cannot give legal advice. If you do not understand the effect of this contract, consult an attorney BEFORE signing." (emphasis mine) Not quite the same thing, wouldn't you agree, being in a profession where how something is worded can be critical?
You're right, TexasHorseLady. That is one of the places in the contract that urges the buyer to involve an attorney. Another says:

"... the [title] commitment should be promptly reviewed by an attorney of Buyer's choice ..."

There is no similar "if you don't understand" phrase in that provision. I'm sure, as a seasoned agent, you are familiar with that provision and emphasise it to your clients.
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