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Old 07-25-2008, 06:18 PM
 
8,240 posts, read 15,219,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditto1 View Post
Sounds like your breeding mediocrity in Texas schools! Good for everyone else who goes to college outside of Texas. If the rule is not changed it will damage the reputation of Texas higher education.
"There are so many “top 10 percenters” are filling up places at the Austin campus that there are few spots available for other highly qualified applicants. Today, 81 percent of all students admitted to the university finished in the top 10 percent of their high school class. Many students at the state’s best high schools who finish in the top 20 percent of their high school class, but not the top 10 percent, are being denied admittance to the University of Texas. As a result, some state legislators would like to repeal the 10 percent law, believing that it is bringing down the overall quality of the student body."
...hmm...guess 'YOUR' right.
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Old 07-26-2008, 08:08 AM
 
370 posts, read 740,370 times
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Let's please distinguish the difference between qualification and admission in college policies and life in general.

Colleges set general qualification requirements which are usually much lower than their actual admission requirements for the year (which is dependent on the # of applications, quality of applicant pool, etc). So you can be qualified to attend Texas/Dartmouth, but it doesn't mean that you get in.

I am qualified to be President of the US (born in the US and over 35), but I still have to be elected. A Hyperbolic analogy, yet explains my point.

I also still think you may be over worrying here about UT. It accepts over 50% of its applicants and many of these applicants choose to go somewhere else. Not all accepted applicants enroll, and the more qualified applicants will get accepted to multiple colleges. So even if 80% of students in to the top 10 percent get accepted, it doesn't mean they enroll. Combine this with a huge class size and an over 50% acceptance rate and the math can help alleviate your concerns.

Last edited by skyao; 07-26-2008 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:51 AM
 
389 posts, read 1,456,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traceyr13 View Post
Interesting...I like to think of myself as forward thinking, but I can't imagine ever pushing this agenda on any of my students.
We obviously have a fundamental disagreement involving the significance of a top-tier college education at an affordable price.

If your job entails helping students achieve admission to the school of their choice, then I believe you have room to improve. If they don't care to go to Texas, then fine, impress them with your knowledge of Williams or Middlebury.
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:23 AM
 
6,336 posts, read 11,480,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuits View Post
Yes, I am saying laws tend to benefit the majority. Is that news to you?
Please name some laws that benefit the majority (to the exclusion of the minority). Especially when it comes to race.
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:27 AM
 
6,336 posts, read 11,480,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
Well, it can occasionally happen that way, but don't count on it.
The key to success isn't being educated, it's being smart and working your buns off, with an emphasis on the latter.

I've seen this idea bandied about before, but I'm highly skeptical. Neither my wife nor I have ever worked for a C student. (Well, except when I was a graveyard-shift dishwasher one summer back in HS - good times.) The BMOC of my college class was straight-As - frat boy, lots of friends, girls drooling over him, played hockey, etc. He's now head physician of a large hospital's emergency room. Meanwhile, there were lots of computer-game jockeys and MRS degree candidates pulling down Cs. I haven't seen any of them in the pages of Forbes lately. All in all, I think there's little correlation between social skills and GPAs. Getting drunk instead of studying does not make you a master of negotiation.

Setting aside outside circumstances, your "job" at college is to get good grades. Someone pulling Cs isn't doing a good job at his/her "job". Perhaps school isn't their thing, but more likely they're just not good at getting the task at hand accomplished, whatever it is.

Most people in charge of businesses, large and small, are used to succeeding at whatever they do. Pulling down crummy grades is not succeeding. I would bet very few of the "winners" in business have college degrees with poor GPAs. You're probably more likely to find either highly successful students or just dropouts - folks who said "Well, I'm not able to succeed at this game, so let me find something I'm better at".

Here is a stat from the millionaire mind (studied millionaires)

Quote:
32 percent are business owners. 16 percent are corporate executives. 10 percent are attorneys. 9 percent are physicians. The rest are accountants, sales professionals, engineers, professors, etc. "A disproportionately high percentage of millionaires, multimillionaires, and decamillionaires are self employed business owners and entrepreneurs or self-employed professionals." See How to make a million dollars for a perspective on that.


Most of these millionaires "have been told by some authority figure or by the results of standardized test scores that we were not intellectually gifted, of law school caliber, medical school material, qualified to pursue a medical degree or smart enough to succeed." Average GPA in college is 2.92.
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:53 AM
 
446 posts, read 1,666,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuits View Post
We obviously have a fundamental disagreement involving the significance of a top-tier college education at an affordable price.

If your job entails helping students achieve admission to the school of their choice, then I believe you have room to improve. If they don't care to go to Texas, then fine, impress them with your knowledge of Williams or Middlebury.
Setting aside the fact that a huge portion of my job has nothing to do with college admissions, and that a large percentage of my students are not in the position to successfully gain admittance to either UTexas or a school like Williams or Middlebury and it is my job to assist them in creating a fulfilling and viable gameplan for post-graduation -

I do not believe our fundamental disagreement is with the "value" of a top-tier college education at an affordable price (although, certainly, we have different definitions of value, as I see education having an intrinsic value of learning, while you apparently view it about the bottom dollar line). I think our fundamental difference is that you seem, by your posts, to view the high school experience and goal as all about getting into the most prestigious undergrad school and thereby gain admittance to the most prestigious graduate school.

As a counselor and parent, I acknowledge that the high school experience is much more complex and nuanced for adolescents. My concern, for my students AND my own children, is for their education and their social and emotional development. Having worked in high schools for almost 10 years now, I think you drastically underestimate the myriad of issues facing teenagers today, and how their school environment directly impacts that, in your focus on the "bottom line" of GPA and college admission.

THAT, I believe, is our fundamental difference.

With that, I'm bowing out of this conversation as this is clearly getting off track of the 10% Texas state school initiative.
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Old 07-26-2008, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Downtown Austin
6,086 posts, read 15,345,945 times
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Quote:
32 percent are business owners. 16 percent are corporate executives. 10 percent are attorneys. 9 percent are physicians. The rest are accountants, sales professionals, engineers, professors, etc. "A disproportionately high percentage of millionaires, multimillionaires, and decamillionaires are self employed business owners and entrepreneurs or self-employed professionals." See How to make a million dollars for a perspective on that.

Most of these millionaires "have been told by some authority figure or by the results of standardized test scores that we were not intellectually gifted, of law school caliber, medical school material, qualified to pursue a medical degree or smart enough to succeed." Average GPA in college is 2.92.
Thanks for that info. I was looking for something similar that I've read but couldn't find the data. I remember reading that a survey of CEOs and successful business owners revealed that, by and large, they weren't academic superstars in high school or college. A similar study tracked high school valedictorians and found that, 5 years and 10 years later, they were no better or worse off in life than the average student. Who woulda thunk it?

There is a distinction between wealth, income and success. Many high income earners (who we traditionally think of as successful) have low net worth (read Millionaire Next Door - most doctors and lawyers have less than 3 month's living expenses in cash reserves) and generally unhappy lives as they try to maintain keeping up with the Jones.

And I don't disagree that many smart people, who ran the table on A grades all the through high school and college, go on to be very happy and successful.

I think those same people would have been successful without the good grades, that they were destined for something more than average because of psychological reasons such as drive, determination, risk taking and creativeness and good instincts.

Just as many academic achievers though are egghead intellectuals who lack creativity or the stones to pull off the risky, life changing moves that create the real opportunity leaps in life, such as quitting your job to start a new business, and risking everything to do so. It takes something different than intelligence to pull that off.
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Old 07-26-2008, 02:14 PM
 
389 posts, read 1,456,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin97 View Post
Please name some laws that benefit the majority (to the exclusion of the minority). Especially when it comes to race.
Well, the progressive income tax would be an example that probably impacts your life more than most laws.

Please tell me, which of these statements do you disagree with?

1 - the top-10% law is a legislated attempt to make the UT/A&M student body more representative of the demographic make-up of Texas.

2 - Texas is becoming more Hispanic.

3 - Legislative districts in Texas typically - but not always - elect someone that is racially representative of their district.

4 - Politicians typically vote in a manner that gains favor with their constituents.

5 - The top-10% law is favored by the majority of law makers from Hispanic-majority districts and their constiutents.

If you generally agree with these statements, then you fully understand the logic of my statements. Moreover, one does not have to be a "racist" to comprehend demographic trends and how and why legislators vote as they do.
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:51 PM
 
4 posts, read 5,397 times
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Default Most important is a good fit

I attended a public high school that is considered one of the best in the nation year after year. While I got a great education, I would never have chosen that type of school for my children. I was very studious but really couldn't participate in other school activities due to my heavy academic load. I did have many options for college; I didn't choose the most prestigious college, I chose the best fit. That's what I chose for my children for their K-12 school system. I wanted them to focus not only on academics but also on all the rest that our public schools offer: band, fine arts, athletics, student government, etc. I wanted a diverse school for them; all types of diversity (economic, ethnic, rural, urban, etc.).

My children all attended, by many measures, a sub-par school system K-12. Their high school struggles to keep their academically acceptable rating. All my children graduated in the top 3% of their class. So they had automatic admission to the public college of their choice in Texas. None of them chose that route. They all chose colleges that were good fits for them. Some went over a thousand miles away. All of them are getting a good education at their colleges; they are competing with students from all over the country. Their "sub-par" high school prepared them well academically; they've all been on the Dean's List many of their terms. They all got academic scholarships that covered some (between 35% and 50%) of the cost. They had many colleges to choose from, as they were accepted to every school that they applied. Some of them could have gone Ivy but they did not like the elitist attitudes there. My children all understood early that they were responsible for their own education; when the teacher was too easy, they expected more of themselves. I would never send my child to a school simply because I thought that they could make good grades; I wanted them to grow into responsible people. I have never regretted our decision for our children to attend a smaller, diverse school system. The whole top ten percent thing should not be the reason you choose a school system.
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Old 07-27-2008, 02:15 PM
 
389 posts, read 1,456,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imamathgeek View Post
That's what I chose for my children for their K-12 school system. I wanted them to focus not only on academics but also on all the rest that our public schools offer: band, fine arts, athletics, student government, etc. I wanted a diverse school for them; all types of diversity (economic, ethnic, rural, urban, etc.). My children all attended, by many measures, a sub-par school system K-12. Their high school struggles to keep their academically acceptable rating.
Seeking out a "sub-par" school for K-12 is an interesting admission.

Are you saying you could have afforded to live somewhere with better schools and purposely moved into an area that feeds into bad schools? Or is it more of a case of moving where the homes are more affordable and trying to justify that decision as one based on the best interests of your kids?

What is the name of the high school that has this perfect blend of diversity and extracurricular activities?
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