The coming hi-rise condo crash in Austin (Dallas, Atlanta: appointed, apartment complexes)

[Austin97]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

First, it's not a little, it's a lot. Second, you obviously won't be here to experience the losses that this kind of development causes. Did you read where I mentioned that there are lovely condo developments (smaller, granted) in and around downtown that still feel like you're living in Austin, not NYC or Chicago or another city of a much different size and feel and environment?

There's more to being environmentally friendly, and more to an environment, than you seem to realize. Austin was being "green" when green wasn't cool, LONG before that, it was one of the things that gave it its flavor.

As for "economical benefits", people have been selling their birthright for a mess of pottage for a LONG time now, and it hasn't turned out well for them for the most part. You'd think we'd have learned by now, but some of us evidently haven't. Thus the mess that we find our economy in right now, as it happens.

When 2000 rolled around, the statesman did an article interviewing people to see when they thought the best time in austin was. Inevitably almost every person thought the best time in austin was about 4 years after they had moved to austin and it only got worse after.

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by thesonofgray

I'm not sure if this particular point is what you're so averse to, but why are you so against higher density?

American cities have too low a density, IMO (at least MOST of them do). Anything within reason we can do to increase Austin's density is great. That doesn't necessarily mean high-rises, but something like the transition happening in West Campus works wonderfully as well. It increases pedestrian traffic, shuns big-box mentality due to simple physical restraints, and, in turn, provides an environment for smaller and more local businesses to thrive. It also allows for multi-purpose buildings. No matter how you try, you can't get that from bungalow neighborhoods.

Will there be complaints over specific structures and their appearance? Of course. I don't know any place where there isn't differences in architectural preferences. But I don't think one hideously colored mid-rise on Guadalupe (the Venue, anyone?) or one glass behemoth on Congress will ruin the entire City for good.

As Austin continues to grow (and anything otherwise would be BAD), we'll need to think of it less as a monolithic entity/community/social scene and more of a collection of neighborhoods. The high-rises in downtown don't define the 78731 neighborhood I live in, nor do the mid-rises in the university area, nor do the funky and hip shops in SoCo, nor does the cookie-cutter suburbia of the north, nor does the local Latin flair of east-central Austin.

Anyways, I think Austin is doing relatively well with its growth, considering the tendencies of our other urban neighbors. I don't mind the high-rises downtown, although I'd like to have a word with some of their architects.

I think the problem is lack of decent planning...In Austin, the developers seem to have a unlimited right to pave over in their own way....that's why you see such a lack of neighborhood in the far north and northwest, where you see hundreds of mega-apartment complexes sprawling everywhere, and no parks or jogging trails whatsoever...no city center for the neighborhood...no meeting places....no sidewalks, for that matter, in many areas........
When you have that same lack of planning, and dump high-rises on an area, the problem is exacerbated....density for the sake of density and a quick buck is antithesis to every great city planner.......aesthetic blight and such magnify with larger complexes.......no one says Austin can't get more dense, or should NOT get more dense, but they need the 101 other things that go with greater density.....rapid transit is one of many....so is convenient shopping and services, still lacking DT......when you build high-rise neighborhoods, especially in/on areas that once were unique and iconoclastic, you must plan, or, as THL says, you kill the goose that lay(s) the golden egg, and become Houston/Dallas/NYC/Chicago lite.......or worse...

[S6Sputnik]

No bust coming IMHO.. No one is building now and soon there will be a shortage in the Austin area!

Very short term (<6 mts)a small drop!! long term not so!!

[AustinGuy]

To close out the remaining units at the 360 last month, the developer had to drop prices 30% below the initial/first day pricing of the same units. So, bust or no bust, 30% off of the first day pricing is a fairly large drop and would mean almost everyone else in the building paid much higher prices than the people who bought the last units.

[twange]

Here's a short article that attempts to demonstrate that the notion of Austin's downtown condo market (DT specifically, not condos generally) being over-built is incorrect. In Miami for example, there is a condo for approximately every 40 residents. In Austin, that ratio is 1 condo for every 1,022 residents. Granted, Miami's culture and lifestyle may encourage more condo interest than Austin but regardless, the numbers suggest that the city of Austin is not over-building. Many of these units are selling and no new projects are coming online that have not already been started. In fact, I think it might be a good idea for the city to take a little break and catch their breath.

Downtown Austin condos: do the math « Downtown Austin

It seems that people often have an emotional reaction towards things like condo towers and high-rises rather than a rational point of view. For example, not being able to afford a high rise often creates the perception that the people who can afford to live there are somehow "inauthentic" in terms of the city's soul. Or seeing new high-rises confirms a sense of loss that "the place just ain't the same anymore" and that all is in ruin (i.e., Austin is turning into Dallas etc...) I hear this even when a condo tower replaces a parking lot! I've also heard a lot of people claim that the new high rises are trying to make Austin something it's not. Well what is Austin? Ask 100 people that question and you'll get 100 different answers. Still seems pretty cool to me.

I just had a friend visit all weekend and he mentioned many times how eclectic and interesting the city was(he's been here before, not just for SXSW btw). In fact, he seemed quite envious of Austin's lifestyle and range of living options compared to his city(Nashville).

For the record, I don't live in a high rise - we cannot afford to nor are we sure if the lifestyle is right for us - but seeing them built doesn't make me "angry" as some folks have mentioned nor does it fill me with doom. And I certainly don't hold it against someone who can afford that lifestyle, that's juvenile. I don't get mad driving around and looking at zillion dollar homes west of the city either - good for them The only trend that bothers me is that so far, almost ALL of the new downtown living options are geared to the very affluent. I think a few simple yet attractive apartment buildings and/or condos would be welcome additions to the downtown scene. I think that makes for a more interesting DT demographic.

Ponder this question: If growth in Austin was inevitable, would you rather have people moving into downtown or out into the Hill Country and other rural areas and small towns?

[nomore07]

Originally Posted by inthecut

Now, enter stage left, on a much smaller scale, Austin, Tex........here are the problems with Austin
carrying its units.....Austin has a relatively average pay base......many jobs are in service/retail/entertainment/gov't, and don't pay anywhere near enough to cover luxury condos....
and there are not anywhere near enough relocatees with the means to do so as well.......

Good point inthecut. They're not really intended for Austin residents. Sit back, have a Shiner, and watch as a good chunk of $upscale$ Dallas takes over what is left of Austin. While the condos distract everyone's attention, take a drive through Lakeway. For those opposed to all the growth, be sure to vent in the right direction... who sold the land and who approved its use for this purpose?

What I don't care for is the poor planning of dropping dozens of these buildings in an area that does not have the infrastructure to support additional traffic and residents. But I do get to laugh when someone buys a condo in the middle of a bar district and complains about noise. It shows the lack of planning from all parties involved

Just for the record, I'm not jealous of condo buyers. Personally I would prefer a house with soil beneath it and no HOA headaches. If I decide to go nuts with the house color, plant a garden, add some cactus and a palm tree, nobody's gonna stop me

[twange]

Originally Posted by nomore07

Just for the record, I'm not jealous of condo buyers. Personally I would prefer a house with soil beneath it and no HOA headaches. If I decide to go nuts with the house color, plant a garden, add some cactus and a palm tree, nobody's gonna stop me

Well good for you that you know what you want and don't want! I think the idea is that Austin has many choices when it comes to lifestyle. This is good no? Live and let live?

BTW, that house you describe is often just as expensive as some of the high-rises going up, when it comes to Central Austin. And those prices were going up before the high-rises were being built. As for HOAs, I don't like them either but a lot of the neighborhoods in Austin have them, including houses.

I think the appeal for people living in condos, apartments or high-rises is that they don't want the maintenance responsibilities of owning a home and they like the included amenities that often come with these units(pool, workout facility, etc...) I've owned a home and while I often enjoyed working on projects, it consumed a tremendous amount of my time, money and energy. Not sure if I want that again for awhile. I'd rather spend my time hiking, traveling, meeting people, learning new things and making music! As for gardening, many prefer potted plants to yard gardens or they join a community garden where they can really get into planting while meeting others.

Again, I'm finding a real lack of distinction in the criticism between condos in general and DT condo high-rises that really seems to convolute the conversation. Are you suggesting anyone who doesn't live in a house but lives in a condo/townhouse/apartment is somehow "not as Austin-y" and contributing to its ruin? Are they just soul-less money-grubbers kneeling at the feet of Mammon? What about single folks? Empty-nesters? Couples without children? The Elderly? Sorry, as a former homeowner, I guess I just question the idea that the ultimate symbol of success and happiness is owning a "house".

Just playing devil's advocate.

[nomore07]

Originally Posted by twange

Again, I'm finding a real lack of distinction in the criticism between condos in general and DT condo high-rises that really seems to convolute the conversation. Are you suggesting anyone who doesn't live in a house but lives in a condo/townhouse/apartment is somehow "not as Austin-y" and contributing to its ruin? Are they just soul-less money-grubbers kneeling at the feet of Mammon? What about single folks? Empty-nesters? Couples without children? The Elderly? Sorry, as a former homeowner, I guess I just question the idea that the ultimate symbol of success and happiness is owning a "house".

Just playing devil's advocate.

Of course not, soul-less money-grubbers live in all kinds of housing. I thought they kneeled to the giant glass high-rise bank downtown that looks like a nose trimmer? I'm not opposed to condos in general, but feel they should not eliminate other housing options (such as apartments, houses) or be clustered in an area that does not have the infrastructure for that kind of density.

Yes some houses can be a lot of maintenance and work, it's not for everyone. I switched from a house to an apartment and didn't feel any loss of emotion or status. It's somewhat liberating, though I miss the critter noises from nearby creeks. A pool and hot tub can make up for that

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by nomore07

I'm not opposed to condos in general, but feel they should not eliminate other housing options (such as apartments, houses) or be clustered in an area that does not have the infrastructure for that kind of density.

What would make you say that? Clustering condos downtown actually should ease stress on the infrastructure, especially where it is really bad -- the highways. Downtown residents are more likely to have 1 car per family, instead of two or three. Putting all those residents near the highest concentration of public transportation helps, too. And for those that will drive their own cars to work, the reverse commute will help distribute traffic more evenly. So it's really the BEST place to cluster a lot of residents -- the infrastructure is there more than it is anywhere else in the city. Consider twange's scenario:

What if growth is inevitable in Austin? Where is it best that people live?

If they aren't in a dense cluster of highrises downtown, they'd be moving to:

1) New, low-rise apartment complexes or condos in the outer neighborhoods/suburbs -- i.e., typical Texas apartment sprawl. These sort of places are characterized by large surface parking lots (bad for the environment), low density (not enough to spur public transportation), and longer commute times (increased dependence on oil and pollution PLUS more stress on our highway infrastructure)

-or-

2) New, single family homes in even farther out neighborhoods and suburbs. These are characterized by HOA run cul-de-sac subdivisions with few in/out road options, making travel inconvenient for the residents and neighborhoods around them. They are even lower density, spur even less public transportation, and have even longer commutes (and more associated stress on our roads). Housing like this is necessary and desirable for families, but it's not necessarily the best place for singles/no kids/etc -- and when there aren't desirable options for those people, they'll end up buying houses because it is the next best thing.

Originally Posted by nomore07

Yes some houses can be a lot of maintenance and work, it's not for everyone. I switched from a house to an apartment and didn't feel any loss of emotion or status. It's somewhat liberating, though I miss the critter noises from nearby creeks. A pool and hot tub can make up for that

There are many apartment buildings among the new DT towers... plus some percentage of the condos will be rentals, too. I'm sure they are discounting rent like everyplace else, so people can get a deal if they are willing to look for it.

[jobert]

Originally Posted by nomore07

Of course not, soul-less money-grubbers live in all kinds of housing. I thought they kneeled to the giant glass high-rise bank downtown that looks like a nose trimmer?

Worst part about that building: it was mass produced. Here is an image of the "Spire" in Atlanta by the same developer - same detailing even.