The coming hi-rise condo crash in Austin (Houston, Dallas: apartment complex, condos)

[AustinGuy]

Originally Posted by atxcio

What would make you say that? Clustering condos downtown actually should ease stress on the infrastructure, especially where it is really bad -- the highways. Downtown residents are more likely to have 1 car per family, instead of two or three. Putting all those residents near the highest concentration of public transportation helps, too. And for those that will drive their own cars to work, the reverse commute will help distribute traffic more evenly. So it's really the BEST place to cluster a lot of residents -- the infrastructure is there more than it is anywhere else in the city. Consider twange's scenario:

This sounds good in theory but in reality the people moving downtown aren't working downtown. A survey commissioned by the Downtown Austin Alliance last year of new condo buyers downtown came to the following results:

"Although this is a small sample size, it is interesting to note that 70% of buyers included in the survey do not work downtown. They are not choosing their residence based on proximity to work. They’re making a lifestyle choice."

Here is a link to the results of the survey if you are interested:
http://www.downtownaustin.com/downlo...y_20080402.pdf

[twange]

Originally Posted by jobert

Worst part about that building: it was mass produced. Here is an image of the "Spire" in Atlanta by the same developer - same detailing even.

Mass produced? Not sure if I would go that far. It's not like you have one of those buildings in every city. They aren't exactly the same but certainly too similar. To me, this type of thing happens when a city does not have a master architect to oversee projects and provide input on design and aesthetics.

What's your solution now? Should we petition the city to remove it? Blow it up in a juvenile display of eco-terrorism? Cast aspersions upon any and all that live there? It's just too easy(and lazy) to pile on with sarcasm and snark...

[twange]

Originally Posted by AustinGuy

This sounds good in theory but in reality the people moving downtown aren't working downtown. A survey commissioned by the Downtown Austin Alliance last year of new condo buyers downtown came to the following results:

"Although this is a small sample size, it is interesting to note that 70% of buyers included in the survey do not work downtown. They are not choosing their residence based on proximity to work. They’re making a lifestyle choice."

Here is a link to the results of the survey if you are interested:
http://www.downtownaustin.com/downlo...y_20080402.pdf

Again, what is wrong with making a lifestyle choice? Don't we all? Buying a house in the suburbs, small town, city high rise? What's the difference.

Now as far as proximity to work, MOST of us don't have the luxury to live close to work. Especially in these times where simply GETTING a job is a victory. This is where quality public transportation can make a difference. And the reverse commute(living in the city but working outside of it) can actually help with traffic a bit. I do this myself: My wife had the better job when we moved here, so we found an apartment that was close to the city and close to her job. We have one car and we'd like to keep it that way.

But Lo!, then I got a fantastic career opportunity...but well north of the city. Unfortunately both of our job locations are weakly supported by Cap Metro's service(particularly mine), so we'll probably have to continue our car-sharing until CM expands service or we move to another location. Even still, it makes sense for us to live Central so as to split the difference. Downtown would be perfect if we could only afford it

[AustinGuy]

Originally Posted by twange

Again, what is wrong with making a lifestyle choice? Don't we all? Buying a house in the suburbs, small town, city high rise? What's the difference.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other what people do. I'm planning on buying a condo downtown, that's why I stay on top of what is happening in the market down there.

The only reason I posted this survey is to clear up the misconception that the buyers downtown are somehow saving all this highway infrastructure since they are working at jobs downtown.

I think the city leaders have done a lot of work over the last several years getting new condo projects downtown. It'd be nice if they concentrated on getting more companies to locate downtown over the next several years.

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by AustinGuy

The only reason I posted this survey is to clear up the misconception that the buyers downtown are somehow saving all this highway infrastructure since they are working at jobs downtown.

If you'll go back and re-read my post, you'll see I never said they would be working downtown. Some might, but you are correct that most won't. However, it still helps the highway infrastructure, as I stated, because people will be reverse commuting -- they will be driving to work in the direction of the suburbs (where the majority of traffic comes from), rather than from that direction. That will distribute the traffic better. Plus, even though our public transportation is lacking, living downtown puts you close to the highest concentration of it (besides maybe the UT campus area). Some downtown residents will take advantage of this; even if it isn't a lot of people, it's still fewer cars on the highways.

Originally Posted by AustinGuy

I think the city leaders have done a lot of work over the last several years getting new condo projects downtown. It'd be nice if they concentrated on getting more companies to locate downtown over the next several years.

I agree. Downtown doesn't need to be just a bedroom community. Ultimately, it should be the complete live/work/play package. Right now, it's mostly just live/play. But it's a start.

[jobert]

Originally Posted by twange

Mass produced? Not sure if I would go that far. It's not like you have one of those buildings in every city. They aren't exactly the same but certainly too similar. To me, this type of thing happens when a city does not have a master architect to oversee projects and provide input on design and aesthetics.

What's your solution now? Should we petition the city to remove it? Blow it up in a juvenile display of eco-terrorism? Cast aspersions upon any and all that live there? It's just too easy(and lazy) to pile on with sarcasm and snark...

They used the same art-deco precast molds for their concrete panels, so the detailing - and materials are the same. The only difference is that one is slightly higher than the other. Easy and lazy? yes. If I paid 400k for a one-bedroom in what I thought was a custom hi-rise, then found out my building was a clone, I'd be pissed.

[AustinGuy]

Originally Posted by jobert

They used the same art-deco precast molds for their concrete panels, so the detailing - and materials are the same. The only difference is that one is slightly higher than the other. Easy and lazy? yes. If I paid 400k for a one-bedroom in what I thought was a custom hi-rise, then found out my building was a clone, I'd be pissed.

Well, most houses in most suburbs are clones from plans used in the same suburbs and other suburbs all across the country. I prefer the look of the 360 in Austin to the one in Atlanta since the Austin one has the cutout section at floor 17 which makes it a little more interesting.

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by twange

Here's a short article that attempts to demonstrate that the notion of Austin's downtown condo market (DT specifically, not condos generally) being over-built is incorrect. In Miami for example, there is a condo for approximately every 40 residents. In Austin, that ratio is 1 condo for every 1,022 residents. Granted, Miami's culture and lifestyle may encourage more condo interest than Austin but regardless, the numbers suggest that the city of Austin is not over-building. Many of these units are selling and no new projects are coming online that have not already been started. In fact, I think it might be a good idea for the city to take a little break and catch their breath.

Downtown Austin condos: do the math « Downtown Austin

It seems that people often have an emotional reaction towards things like condo towers and high-rises rather than a rational point of view. For example, not being able to afford a high rise often creates the perception that the people who can afford to live there are somehow "inauthentic" in terms of the city's soul. Or seeing new high-rises confirms a sense of loss that "the place just ain't the same anymore" and that all is in ruin (i.e., Austin is turning into Dallas etc...) I hear this even when a condo tower replaces a parking lot! I've also heard a lot of people claim that the new high rises are trying to make Austin something it's not. Well what is Austin? Ask 100 people that question and you'll get 100 different answers. Still seems pretty cool to me.

I just had a friend visit all weekend and he mentioned many times how eclectic and interesting the city was(he's been here before, not just for SXSW btw). In fact, he seemed quite envious of Austin's lifestyle and range of living options compared to his city(Nashville).

For the record, I don't live in a high rise - we cannot afford to nor are we sure if the lifestyle is right for us - but seeing them built doesn't make me "angry" as some folks have mentioned nor does it fill me with doom. And I certainly don't hold it against someone who can afford that lifestyle, that's juvenile. I don't get mad driving around and looking at zillion dollar homes west of the city either - good for them The only trend that bothers me is that so far, almost ALL of the new downtown living options are geared to the very affluent. I think a few simple yet attractive apartment buildings and/or condos would be welcome additions to the downtown scene. I think that makes for a more interesting DT demographic.

Ponder this question: If growth in Austin was inevitable, would you rather have people moving into downtown or out into the Hill Country and other rural areas and small towns?

Twange, you always post extremely thoughtful posts on here...enjoyed reading this one, as usual.....Just a few comments.....I'm still thinking that the fear from locals that the high-rises are destroying the spirit of Austin is well founded.......this because of Austin's unique, eclectic, low-rise earthiness, grandfathered from decades of sleepy, World Armadillo Headquarters/Austin City Limits/Threadgills atmospheric sweetness....sweet as Chai....the same Chai that I drink at the backyard party/picnic/BBQ and singalong first wednesdays every month by Zilker Park....same house, same backyard, same BYOFood and Drink, and largely the same old hippies, for 35 years.......compared to that, the high-rise silliness, wedded to the abject lack of central planning in the same district, and carte blanche ticket to developers to tear and rip at will, same as the thousands of acres of mega-apartment complexes north and northwest, seems indeed something to be concerned about.......

Austin indeed is not holy writ per the future, but, indeed, the MAIN magnet for new folks IS the atmosphere...easy to pave over, well nigh impossible to build up again....very much like a dense brazilian rain forest, with a root ecosystem torn asunder.....destroy that delicate balance of a "creative city", take away what little affordablility the creative types, and local musical venues need, and you have no more Austin.....

Also very much like George Washington's Ax, in which the handle and head was replaced, but they still considered it the same thing, and called it the same.....

However you slice it, it certainly would NOT be the same Austin.....

Note picture is public domain.....

[twange]

Originally Posted by AustinGuy

Personally, I don't care one way or the other what people do. I'm planning on buying a condo downtown, that's why I stay on top of what is happening in the market down there.

The only reason I posted this survey is to clear up the misconception that the buyers downtown are somehow saving all this highway infrastructure since they are working at jobs downtown.

I think the city leaders have done a lot of work over the last several years getting new condo projects downtown. It'd be nice if they concentrated on getting more companies to locate downtown over the next several years.

Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. I agree about luring companies downtown. It would be refreshing to actually build something downtown OTHER than luxury condos. I think everyone would agree on that

I was very disappointed when the new Art Museum space and office building had to put their project on hold. I would have much rather seen that built than another pricey condo. Let's hope that project is simply on hold and not dead.

[atxcio]

Originally Posted by jobert

They used the same art-deco precast molds for their concrete panels, so the detailing - and materials are the same. The only difference is that one is slightly higher than the other. Easy and lazy? yes. If I paid 400k for a one-bedroom in what I thought was a custom hi-rise, then found out my building was a clone, I'd be pissed.

I wouldn't call it a clone. It's also not "slightly" taller, it's much taller. 44 floors vs. 28. Lots of buildings across the US have "sister" buildings (or even real clones) in other cities. Austin definitely got the better deal with 360, I much prefer the 44 story version w/the setback and the more distinct "opposite" side (vs. the Spire).

Also remember that Novare isn't in the super-high end custom condos business. 1 Bedrooms at 360 were initially priced at $190K. Novare's second condo tower here, Ovation (likely on hold), is a variation of one of their designs in Florida. It probably will share detailing like 360 does with Spire. Condos would be at a similar pricepoint to 360 (starting at $200K or so).