The coming hi-rise condo crash in Austin (Houston, Dallas: high crime, mortgage)

[twange]

Originally Posted by inthecut

Twange, you always post extremely thoughtful posts on here...enjoyed reading this one, as usual.....Just a few comments.....I'm still thinking that the fear from locals that the high-rises are destroying the spirit of Austin is well founded.......this because of Austin's unique, eclectic, low-rise earthiness, grandfathered from decades of sleepy, World Armadillo Headquarters/Austin City Limits/Threadgills atmospheric sweetness....sweet as Chai....the same Chai that I drink at the backyard party/picnic/BBQ and singalong first wednesdays every month by Zilker Park....same house, same backyard, same BYOFood and Drink, and largely the same old hippies, for 35 years.......compared to that, the high-rise silliness, wedded to the abject lack of central planning in the same district, and carte blanche ticket to developers to tear and rip at will, same as the thousands of acres of mega-apartment complexes north and northwest, seems indeed something to be concerned about.......

Austin indeed is not holy writ per the future, but, indeed, the MAIN magnet for new folks IS the atmosphere...easy to pave over, well nigh impossible to build up again....very much like a dense brazilian rain forest, with a root ecosystem torn asunder.....destroy that delicate balance of a "creative city", take away what little affordablility the creative types, and local musical venues need, and you have no more Austin.....

Also very much like George Washington's Ax, in which the handle and head was replaced, but they still considered it the same thing, and called it the same.....

However you slice it, it certainly would NOT be the same Austin.....

Note picture is public domain.....

I understand the argument but I'm just not buying that all is in ruin. There is STILL a lot of creative people coming here, so I just don't see the proof in this corollary: build high-rise condos - kill Austin's vibe. I have a lot of friends who travel here and they pick up on Austin's vibe right away. The central city is still very eclectic and interesting. My neighborhood alone(S 1st) has continued to grow local businesses in the less than 2 years that I've been here and we are constantly finding fun, silly things to do. My wife just joined a hoola-hoop group

As far as ruining the delicate balance of creative vs commerce, Austin is hardly the first city to face this challenge - and they won't be the last. Cities are created and sustained by PEOPLE not buildings. As long as creative people want to come here(which they still are), the city will reflect their personality and those people will find a way to survive!

My solution is to mix in more affordable low-rise apartments/condos with retail (in the DT area) to compliment the high rises and improve PT from/to and within the city limits. And I would be VERY careful approving condo/large scale projects in historic/established neighborhoods (i.e. Pecan Grove park )

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by twange

Well good for you that you know what you want and don't want! I think the idea is that Austin has many choices when it comes to lifestyle. This is good no? Live and let live?

BTW, that house you describe is often just as expensive as some of the high-rises going up, when it comes to Central Austin. And those prices were going up before the high-rises were being built. As for HOAs, I don't like them either but a lot of the neighborhoods in Austin have them, including houses.

I think the appeal for people living in condos, apartments or high-rises is that they don't want the maintenance responsibilities of owning a home and they like the included amenities that often come with these units(pool, workout facility, etc...) I've owned a home and while I often enjoyed working on projects, it consumed a tremendous amount of my time, money and energy. Not sure if I want that again for awhile. I'd rather spend my time hiking, traveling, meeting people, learning new things and making music! As for gardening, many prefer potted plants to yard gardens or they join a community garden where they can really get into planting while meeting others.

Again, I'm finding a real lack of distinction in the criticism between condos in general and DT condo high-rises that really seems to convolute the conversation. Are you suggesting anyone who doesn't live in a house but lives in a condo/townhouse/apartment is somehow "not as Austin-y" and contributing to its ruin? Are they just soul-less money-grubbers kneeling at the feet of Mammon? What about single folks? Empty-nesters? Couples without children? The Elderly? Sorry, as a former homeowner, I guess I just question the idea that the ultimate symbol of success and happiness is owning a "house".

Just playing devil's advocate.

Twange, I think the issue breaks up unless you look at it in a macro way...
just writ large.....Take the collective Zietgiest that is Austin, and that WAS Austin, and add what you will...if the sum defaces and changes what Austin is beloved for....so much so that it is one of the very few cities folks will take a large pay cut to live in(Key West and a handful of others
as well), than you have no Austin writ large that folks writ large will be as interested in moving to and taking pay cuts to live in.......

[twange]

Originally Posted by jobert

They used the same art-deco precast molds for their concrete panels, so the detailing - and materials are the same. The only difference is that one is slightly higher than the other. Easy and lazy? yes. If I paid 400k for a one-bedroom in what I thought was a custom hi-rise, then found out my building was a clone, I'd be pissed.

Now that's a different point. If I were paying 400K for a condo, you can bet yer *ss I would do research on the developer/firm. I mean, people do that with their home builders right?

[inthecut]

Richard Florida has some great books written on the Creative Class, that same class that Austin is composed of......the point, again and again, is that creative as such is a delicate balance...take away its environment, affordablility, zeitgiest, and freedom, and it can ebb quickly.....this is especially the case for the musicians and lower-rent musical venues they largely play in.....take away the affordable venues and residences, encourage a hard-core capitalist dynamic, in which all the major REIT funds want to focus on high-end, the sweet spot for profits, and take in consideration the abject lack of city planning or watch-dogging for the same......and all you have is a bit of dissention on these posts and a few papers, notably the Chronicle, as the city sells its soul to the highest bidder.........

No bull whatsoever, folks......God's truth....

[twange]

Originally Posted by inthecut

Twange, I think the issue breaks up unless you look at it in a macro way...
just writ large.....Take the collective Zietgiest that is Austin, and that WAS Austin, and add what you will...if the sum defaces and changes what Austin is beloved for....so much so that it is one of the very few cities folks will take a large pay cut to live in(Key West and a handful of others
as well), than you have no Austin writ large that folks writ large will be as interested in moving to and taking pay cuts to live in.......

But as time goes by, Austin is beloved by different people for different reasons no?

Take music for example. The "classic Austin" style is a big interesting mixture of roots/country/blues/rock and then some. The folks who pioneered that stuff are all in their 50s, 60s and 70s (or dead!). Nowadays, Austin is mostly known(outside of Austin) for its Indie-Rock scene. While some folks may think that the music scene has "lost something", the younger generation thinks it's a mecca! They love Austin for what it is now and think it will stay this way forever. In 10-20 years(much less actually) when some new musical culture takes over, they will pine nostalgically for the good old days of skinny jeans and pseudo-retro indie rock

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by twange

But as time goes by, Austin is beloved by different people for different reasons no?

Take music for example. The "classic Austin" style is a big interesting mixture of roots/country/blues/rock and then some. The folks who pioneered that stuff are all in their 50s, 60s and 70s (or dead!). Nowadays, Austin is mostly known(outside of Austin) for its Indie-Rock scene. While some folks may think that the music scene has "lost something", the younger generation thinks it's a mecca! They love Austin for what it is now and think it will stay this way forever. In 10-20 years(much less actually) when some new musical culture takes over, they will pine nostalgically for the good old days of skinny jeans and pseudo-retro indie rock

Let's hope so!

I suppose the only way we can all know for sure if the new, higher-end development ruins the affordability and freedom that enables artists of all types to thrive, is to hang around for another 5-10 years and see how it works out.....My hunch is that all the hubbub of art, at least the music and galleries worth seeing and hearing, will continue to migrate east, following the gentrification of the same......what will be left of 6th and such is pretty much what its becoming...a parody of Austin's music scene, with dueling Piano and singalong bars, and other trite awfulness, as the vital scene moves away or dissipates completely......the city CAN lose its music scene if it isn't careful....not vouchsafed by ANYONE forever...it has to be nurtured VERY carefully.....canyoning over west riverside, south congress, and DT with high-rises and such is antithesis to that nurturing.......

You get what you pay for/nurture.......and Austin will bear the fruits of that in the future...we can only wait and see how it plays out...

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by twange

But as time goes by, Austin is beloved by different people for different reasons no?

Take music for example. The "classic Austin" style is a big interesting mixture of roots/country/blues/rock and then some. The folks who pioneered that stuff are all in their 50s, 60s and 70s (or dead!). Nowadays, Austin is mostly known(outside of Austin) for its Indie-Rock scene. While some folks may think that the music scene has "lost something", the younger generation thinks it's a mecca! They love Austin for what it is now and think it will stay this way forever. In 10-20 years(much less actually) when some new musical culture takes over, they will pine nostalgically for the good old days of skinny jeans and pseudo-retro indie rock

Twange, the Alt-country scene is still very vibrant in Austin...and not just Dale Watson at the continental club......world music and blues are big as well, both still can be heard all over, from Antone's to the "long center".....that Indie-Rock you mention is really a Red River District, Emo's thing........Austin's malange of music is simply Texas' same melange....a little ZZ, a little funk, lots of country, lots of retro everything, and the indie rock you mention, which has been nurtured by SXSW the last few years, and attracts the same bands looking to be spotted at the same...

Austin's music is all over the place.......dont ya just luv it?

[twange]

Originally Posted by inthecut

Twange, the Alt-country scene is still very vibrant in Austin...and not just Dale Watson at the continental club......world music and blues are big as well, both still can be heard all over, from Antone's to the "long center".....that Indie-Rock you mention is really a Red River District, Emo's thing........Austin's malange of music is simply Texas' same melange....a little ZZ, a little funk, lots of country, lots of retro everything, and the indie rock you mention, which has been nurtured by SXSW the last few years, and attracts the same bands looking to be spotted at the same...

Austin's music is all over the place.......dont ya just luv it?

Well, for sure there is a bit of everything, but the alt-country scene is not as prominent as I had hoped, although there are some GREAT singer/songwriters here. The jazz scene is pretty much limited to the Elephant Room(no complaints though, that place is excellent), and the new music/modern classical is very tiny, although growing. But the Indie rock scene is well beyond the RR district...which is just fine. I like diverse music scenes

There's room for everyone!

[KK09]

Here's an interesting article regarding the Austin condo market:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/austi...sh-austin.html

I have a love/hate relationship with high rise condos in Austin. On one hand, I love the idea of living where you work and if it means less cars heading downtown every morning, I'm all for it. It does make me sad that Austin is changing though. I lived in Miami for two years after graduating college and remember being so disgusted that you could buy a one bedroom condo there for what you could buy a 3 bedroom 2 bath home for in Texas. I also hated the fact that almost every road was a toll road and you had to pay at least 2$ just to get most places.
Then I move back to Austin, and toll roads and condos that cost more than a 4 bedroom house in the burbs are popping up everywhere.
Times they are a changin'

[inthecut]

Originally Posted by Kaira sells casas

Here's an interesting article regarding the Austin condo market:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/austi...sh-austin.html

I have a love/hate relationship with high rise condos in Austin. On one hand, I love the idea of living where you work and if it means less cars heading downtown every morning, I'm all for it. It does make me sad that Austin is changing though. I lived in Miami for two years after graduating college and remember being so disgusted that you could buy a one bedroom condo there for what you could buy a 3 bedroom 2 bath home for in Texas. I also hated the fact that almost every road was a toll road and you had to pay at least 2$ just to get most places.
Then I move back to Austin, and toll roads and condos that cost more than a 4 bedroom house in the burbs are popping up everywhere.
Times they are a changin'

Good points.....many feel Austin has an inferiority complex for whatever reason, and is simply trying to be a Miami, Houston, Dallas lite.....completely forgetting its Raison de Existence.....to me, its simply like bulldozing over an Artist Colony........and letting the artists that are left run away and fend for themselves....