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View Poll Results: Do you support the boycott of Arizona?
Yes 27 25.47%
No 76 71.70%
Not sure 3 2.83%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-14-2010, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,840,336 times
Reputation: 2242

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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricninja View Post
They do not want a balkanized society divided by language and they do not want to see illegals flying Mexican flags on American soil because that is tantamount to conquest. .

There is really no point in saying anything else. Your above statement proves my point.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:28 PM
 
Location: DFW
2,947 posts, read 3,510,202 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by riaelise View Post
My job is fairly specialized, so i'm afraid that doesn't apply. In any event, illegals have filled in voids that Americans have largely let them fill for many years. They aren't afraid to do labor that at one time people felt below them. They aren't afraid to start their own businesses. They aren't afraid to work long hours. The pay might be low, but anything beats the hell where they came from. I have a lot of respect for the immigrants who try to be upstanding members of society, even if their immigration status may or may not be legal. For a good while, many Americans would not think of busing a table, and it takes a recession for many of us to appreciate that a job is a job.
You're saying that college students would never think of busing a table to make money in a good economy?

Last edited by D-Towner; 05-14-2010 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:04 AM
 
85 posts, read 129,091 times
Reputation: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by riaelise View Post
My job is fairly specialized, so i'm afraid that doesn't apply. In any event, illegals have filled in voids that Americans have largely let them fill for many years. They aren't afraid to do labor that at one time people felt below them. They aren't afraid to start their own businesses. They aren't afraid to work long hours. The pay might be low, but anything beats the hell where they came from. I have a lot of respect for the immigrants who try to be upstanding members of society, even if their immigration status may or may not be legal. For a good while, many Americans would not think of busing a table, and it takes a recession for many of us to appreciate that a job is a job.
Too bad that doesn't hold any water when the government is paying people not to work and businesses that get raided and relieved of their illegal workforce are immediately replaced by eager Americans working at least minimum wage. The whole "work is beneath us" is absolutely bunk and it insults Americans to even suggest we think that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
There is really no point in saying anything else. Your above statement proves my point.
There is no point in you saying anything at all because you had nothing and you still have nothing.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,840,336 times
Reputation: 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by electricninja View Post
Too bad that doesn't hold any water when the government is paying people not to work and businesses that get raided and relieved of their illegal workforce are immediately replaced by eager Americans working at least minimum wage. The whole "work is beneath us" is absolutely bunk and it insults Americans to even suggest we think that way.



There is no point in you saying anything at all because you had nothing and you still have nothing.
LOL. Oh my. Another poster with less than 10 posts under their belt that doesn't read previous posts before throwing up all over the thread.

Just b/c you say something is "bunk" doesn't mean it is. I have already explained my opinions quite lenghtly in my other posts. And I am allowed my opinion.

You might have an easier time convincing people if you stick to salient arguments and stop yelling insults and saying "that's bunk, that's bunk" over and over again.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:27 AM
 
85 posts, read 129,091 times
Reputation: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
LOL. Oh my. Another poster with less than 10 posts under their belt that doesn't read previous posts before throwing up all over the thread.
You fired a blank shot at my punctuation and now another at my post count. This isn't looking serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
You might have an easier time convincing people if you stick to salient arguments and stop yelling insults and saying "that's bunk, that's bunk" over and over again.
You called people against illegal immigration "racist", so take your own advice.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Pflugerville
2,211 posts, read 4,840,336 times
Reputation: 2242
Quote:
Originally Posted by electricninja View Post
You are very obviously not watching any of the polls and are living in a liberal la la land. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by electricninja View Post
You fired a blank shot at my punctuation and now another at my post count. This isn't looking serious.

You called people against illegal immigration "racist", so take your own advice.
It's not a blank shot when you attack first dear. As pointed out in your quote above. You tossed out the first insult. So many dishonest people on the forum these days.

If your only goal is to attack people you disagree with, and not have a conversation with them, then that's your prerogative. But it is dishonest of you to pretend that you didn't fire the first shot.

But like I said, there is nothing left to discuss with you, because we can't have a debate. I don't mind if people passionately defend their views, I do mind when they come out of the gates with insults and no salient points. Insult me and Rialese and everyone else all you want. You only display your own ignorance.

I have already explained why I feel the Arizona Law is racist, and why it's implications would be exciting to racists. I didn't say EVERYONE that supported it was racist. I simply said that it itself was racist, and that it would be very appealing to racists. I never said "everyone against illegal immigration is racist" as you quote me as saying. That is just more of your dishonest exaggerations. I am against illegal immigration. If you had bothered to read you would know that I said I want illegal immigration to stop, I just feel that this law won't do that. It will only cause more problems.

And there is a racial overtone to this bill. I am not going to rehash my arguments for that though. You can either choose to read them, or not. I am not at your beck and call to rewrite everything because you are too lazy to hit a back button.

The "dig" at your post count was to let you know that typically on the Austin forum, more people will listen to you if you are trying to explain why you feel the way you do, not just yell "whatever, whatever, that's bunk, that's bunk". Most people like a little "meat" to the posts they read. Like all advice, you can do with that as you wish.


But since you are dishonest and are only interested in attacking posters you disagree with, then I am not going to go round and round with you. Someone else can play that game with you. Too often I get drawn into arguments with people that just turn into a back and forth of "no, you're wrong. no, YOU'RE wrong." And it's just not worth it to me.

Especially not with someone like you who is dishonest and doesn't bother to read posts before you attack.

Last edited by JayBrown80; 05-15-2010 at 01:05 AM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
2,101 posts, read 4,520,926 times
Reputation: 2738
Could we please stop the name-calling and get back to debating the issues?

For those of you complaining that those of us who oppose the bill haven't read it, I have, and this is what the first part of it says (I apologize for the all caps - this is how it was printed in the actual legislation):

"FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

The problem here is that this section of the bill requires all local law enforcement to investigate a person’s immigration status when certain indicators exist that give rise to reasonable suspicion that they are in the country unlawfully, regardless of whether that person is suspected of a crime. Furthermore, the bill never defines the term "reasonable suspicion."

So, to those of you who support this bill: can you see how this bill opens the way to racial profiling? Maybe you don't think that most police would purposefully profile people, but there's nothing in the bill to stop the police from doing so. All it would take is one abusive police officer to cause a problem, and lord knows, there are probably other police officers in AZ just like Joe Arpaio.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:26 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 2,762,817 times
Reputation: 3593
Quote:
Originally Posted by llkltk View Post
Well homeinatx, 70% of this country disagrees with you. Texas is on the same path to pass the same law so get ready for it. Many other states will follow suit. If the government can't get immigration reform done then the states have every right to do so. The boycotts are doing nothing, challenges to AZ are failing. This is the new normal so get used to it.

I think I'll go to Arizona and drop a bundle. Yeah for state's rights!

Eric Holder hasn't even read the bill.
I have now waded through this ghastly thread. Special thanks to JayBrown particularly for being a humane and intelligent and coherent voice in the face of the moral bankruptcy that defines so much of this conversation. I don't have the patience. "Illegal immigration" is a huge and tangled problem, and laws which only target desperately poor undocumented workers (and U.S. citizens who look like how law enforcement imagines such workers to to look) do indeed do very little except appeal to the basest identitarian (I am trying not to say racist) impulses of parts of the populace. And of course, the letter of the law has no need to mention "race," the literalists are being totally disingenuous here- how many white people - proportionately are going to be asked to produce papers???

The structuring of the global economy and the complicity of the US government regardless of who was in power is at the root. One instance: NAFTA allowed the outsourcing of much U.S. manufacturing to Mexico, particularly to the thousands of maquiladoras along the border. Those items soon were able to be made much cheaper in China and those Mexican workers had no choice but to starve or cross the border. In central Texas consumer demand for ever bigger, cheaper new houses along with the subprime boondoggle meant some of them could come here to work in construction - llkltk who do you think built your big clapboard house in Meridian - whatever structural integrity it has is based in no small part on Mexican sweat. While we all benefit from super-exploited Mexican labor, I find it particularly egregious when those folk whose very housing - never mind food -is largely dependent on the grossly underpaid work of undocumented workers - get virulent about undocumented workers. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that immigration law in the U.S., and the selective enforcement thereof is a big mess, and the causes of the problem lie much deeper than the level that laws can hope to address. All that stupid measures like the Arizona law will accomplish is make the human traffickers richer, make the drug trade more profitable, add to human misery, along with giving law enforcement an alibi to harass every brown person they want to, and appeal to the worst elements in the U.S. national character. In reality, it will do nothing except erode the civil liberties of U.S. citizens, produce facile flag-waving, make undocumented workers more desperate so they will work for even less money, drive more of them into crime - why not? they have been made into criminals anyway.

It is in all our interests to see the assimilation and integration of undocumented workers into U.S. society as quickly and painlessly as possible. Even Ronald Reagan, a callous pig of the first order in my book, knew this and granted fairly extensive amnesty to illegals in 1986! Both the Arizona law and the Austin City Council's decision to boycott Arizona are nothing more than posturing - symbolic politics at best, that do nothing to address the real and pressing issues. My long 2 cents . . .
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
653 posts, read 1,791,350 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by passionatearts View Post
Could we please stop the name-calling and get back to debating the issues?

For those of you complaining that those of us who oppose the bill haven't read it, I have, and this is what the first part of it says (I apologize for the all caps - this is how it was printed in the actual legislation):

"FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

The problem here is that this section of the bill requires all local law enforcement to investigate a person’s immigration status when certain indicators exist that give rise to reasonable suspicion that they are in the country unlawfully, regardless of whether that person is suspected of a crime. Furthermore, the bill never defines the term "reasonable suspicion."

So, to those of you who support this bill: can you see how this bill opens the way to racial profiling? Maybe you don't think that most police would purposefully profile people, but there's nothing in the bill to stop the police from doing so. All it would take is one abusive police officer to cause a problem, and lord knows, there are probably other police officers in AZ just like Joe Arpaio.
I believe that part of the bill was reworded, based on the very concerns you mention, but I can not find the exact text as it was changed. What I do find, I am not absolutely certain is the actual text of the law, that was signed into law, as opposed to an earlier version.

I did like the parts of the law that dealt with those who traffic or hire illegal residents.

I do think that if one group is required to carry around proof of legal residency, EVERYONE (no matter what the race or nationality of ancestors) should have the same requirement.
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:44 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,253 times
Reputation: 10
Default I am boycotting Austin

As long as Austin is boycotting Arizona I will not travel to Austin or purchase anything made in Austin.
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