Trust US Marines in Australia ? (crime rate, lawyers, high school)

[nzrugby]

With the population of Okinawa sick of the rapes and other crimes by US Marines should Australia be taking the risk of having them on Australian soil ?
It will be interesting to see if US forces are above Australian law and enforcement when they commit a crime.
Too tough on the US Marines, just have a glance at their history on Okinawa.

Incidents Involving US Military in Okinawa

[suzy_q2010]

Did you consider the source of the link you posted? Closethebase.org?

The issue of crimes committed by Americans in Okinawa is part of a much larger controversy. The Okinawans want the Americans out, and they almost as badly do not want Japanese bases on the island.

This results in any crime by an American being sensationalized.

The Okinawa

"One sees the same thing when one looks at crime statistics. There is a perception that US forces in Okinawa are a lawless bunch, and that Japan has no control over them. This perception is incorrect in at least two respects. US personnel and their dependents comprise only a tiny fraction of all arrestees in Okinawa, even though they make up 3% of the local population. In contrast, on average, the local Okinawan crime rate is six times more than those committed by US forces. Secondly, the Status of Forces Agreement and other arrangements allow Japanese authorities to arrest and detain suspects for off-base crimes and have access to suspects on base for suspects that are under US jurisdiction until they are ready to charge them.

Indeed, in a clear misrepresentation of statistics, a report released in the summer of 2000 by a national lawyers’ group announced that US crime statistics in Okinawa were 10 times that of local citizens. The story was widely carried in the local press. The data of the report, written by a member of the Okinawa Lawyers’ Association, however, was later found to be highly inaccurate. However, the damage was done. Even after small corrections were made, without notice, in the press, a speaker at a rally on July 15 that year in Ginowan cited the same figure, and the impression continues that crimes by US forces are high. If anything, crime rates for US personnel have been decreasing over the years.

It also needs to be pointed out that punishment is much more severe on the US side as well. Not only are military members punished in civilian courts if found guilty, but they would likely be punished in military courts as well for chargeable offenses. Moreover, alleged crimes dismissed by Japanese prosecutors may still be punished within the military if regulations and codes of conduct were found to have been broken."

The author lives on Okinawa.

I really do not think that Australia needs to worry.

[nzrugby]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

Did you consider the source of the link you posted? Closethebase.org?

The issue of crimes committed by Americans in Okinawa is part of a much larger controversy. The Okinawans want the Americans out, and they almost as badly do not want Japanese bases on the island.

This results in any crime by an American being sensationalized.

The Okinawa

"One sees the same thing when one looks at crime statistics. There is a perception that US forces in Okinawa are a lawless bunch, and that Japan has no control over them. This perception is incorrect in at least two respects. US personnel and their dependents comprise only a tiny fraction of all arrestees in Okinawa, even though they make up 3% of the local population. In contrast, on average, the local Okinawan crime rate is six times more than those committed by US forces. Secondly, the Status of Forces Agreement and other arrangements allow Japanese authorities to arrest and detain suspects for off-base crimes and have access to suspects on base for suspects that are under US jurisdiction until they are ready to charge them.

Indeed, in a clear misrepresentation of statistics, a report released in the summer of 2000 by a national lawyers’ group announced that US crime statistics in Okinawa were 10 times that of local citizens. The story was widely carried in the local press. The data of the report, written by a member of the Okinawa Lawyers’ Association, however, was later found to be highly inaccurate. However, the damage was done. Even after small corrections were made, without notice, in the press, a speaker at a rally on July 15 that year in Ginowan cited the same figure, and the impression continues that crimes by US forces are high. If anything, crime rates for US personnel have been decreasing over the years.

It also needs to be pointed out that punishment is much more severe on the US side as well. Not only are military members punished in civilian courts if found guilty, but they would likely be punished in military courts as well for chargeable offenses. Moreover, alleged crimes dismissed by Japanese prosecutors may still be punished within the military if regulations and codes of conduct were found to have been broken."

The author lives on Okinawa.

I really do not think that Australia needs to worry.

One would expect ANY disciplined military body to have a far lower rate of crime than the general population.
The rape of a twelve year old girl by Marines was sensationalised ?
That is like saying Mai Lai was sensationalised.

So you would expect the US Marines to have the same rate of crime as Australian soldiers or higher ?

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by nzrugby

One would expect ANY disciplined military body to have a far lower rate of crime than the general population.
The rape of a twelve year old girl by Marines was sensationalised ?
That is like saying Mai Lai was sensationalised.

So you would expect the US Marines to have the same rate of crime as Australian soldiers or higher ?

The men involved in the rape were tried and convicted in Japan. One of them later murdered his girlfriend and committed suicide. Do you really think that their military training had anything to do with their behavior? Probably the only connection between the military and the crime is that it put them in proximity to their victim. Perhaps they thought that they would be more likely to get away with what they did than they would have in the U. S. Their prison sentences were less than ten years, probably lighter than they would have gotten in the States.

My Lai happened in a war zone. So did several recently reported events concerning American soldiers. Since Australia is not currently a war zone, let us confine the discussion to American Marines stationed in peace zones, shall we?

Also, are we discussing just sex crimes or do we include all crime? Assault? Murder? Driving while impaired? Theft?

There are about a quarter million active and reserve U. S. Marines. About 6% are female.

In a population of over 200,000 males of an age to serve in the Marines, there are going to be some drunks, some thieves, and some sexual predators.

I know of no way for a recruiter to screen all of them out, but at least the ones with bad criminal histories will not be allowed to join.

So I would expect the rate of crime in Australia committed by U. S. Marines to be less than that committed by the overall Australian population and probably in the same ballpark as Australian soldiers.

[nzrugby]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

The men involved in the rape were tried and convicted in Japan. One of them later murdered his girlfriend and committed suicide. Do you really think that their military training had anything to do with their behavior? Probably the only connection between the military and the crime is that it put them in proximity to their victim. Perhaps they thought that they would be more likely to get away with what they did than they would have in the U. S. Their prison sentences were less than ten years, probably lighter than they would have gotten in the States.

My Lai happened in a war zone. So did several recently reported events concerning American soldiers. Since Australia is not currently a war zone, let us confine the discussion to American Marines stationed in peace zones, shall we?

Also, are we discussing just sex crimes or do we include all crime? Assault? Murder? Driving while impaired? Theft?

There are about a quarter million active and reserve U. S. Marines. About 6% are female.

In a population of over 200,000 males of an age to serve in the Marines, there are going to be some drunks, some thieves, and some sexual predators.

I know of no way for a recruiter to screen all of them out, but at least the ones with bad criminal histories will not be allowed to join.

So I would expect the rate of crime in Australia committed by U. S. Marines to be less than that committed by the overall Australian population and probably in the same ballpark as Australian soldiers.

Must mention to my relatives serving in Afghanistan that neither Aussies or Kiwis are in a combat area.
One has a suspicion that the Aus and NZ armed forces take a touch more care on those who can join up.
Looking at the levels of education needed to join as a OR/ enlisted would be interesting.

[wanneroo]

Another anti American paranoia thread posted by nzrugby. All of his insightful threads should be lumped together.

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by nzrugby

Must mention to my relatives serving in Afghanistan that neither Aussies or Kiwis are in a combat area.
One has a suspicion that the Aus and NZ armed forces take a touch more care on those who can join up.
Looking at the levels of education needed to join as a OR/ enlisted would be interesting.

I believe your initial question was about Americans being stationed on Australian soil, not Americans serving in Afghanistan alongside Aussies and Kiwis. Maybe I misunderstood?


For education, should we compare a Marine to Australian Army or Navy?


Marine:

United States Marine Corps Enlistment Requirements - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Australian Navy:

Navy sailor

Australian Army:

http://content.defencejobs.gov.au/pd...r_MDFA2383.pdf

A marine must be a high school graduate. It appears the Australian services take them younger, and the Navy has an apprenticeship type system. That makes it a bit hard to compare.

The Navy job descriptions do not lend to comparison with the Marines, so perhaps we should just compare with the Army.

I cannot say that Australia appears to be more selective.

The vast majority of Marine officers are college graduates.

There does not appear to be any indication that the Marines are recruiting criminals.

[Mojave82]

Marines have got a bad rap for years on Okinawa. Truth is that the Air Force has far more incidents but do a much better job at damage control. Its often reported that a Soldier did the crime and everyone assumes its a Marine.

[Trimac20]

Huh? Seriously?

If anything you should be more worried about your Missus having a tryst with a handsome doughboy!

[Bideshi]

Perhaps we should ask if the marines will be safe from the Sheilas in Australia...