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Old 11-04-2017, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Brisbane
3,358 posts, read 5,188,930 times
Reputation: 2694

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
The big difference between the US and Australia/New Zealand is that the US no longer simply sees itself as a colony nation and feels no attachment to Britain, this has been the case for the last few centuries, this is partly due to settlers from all across the world who called the US home and who outnumbered British settlers and thus culturally is in no way similar to Britain. The USA defined it's own identity and once a nation defines it's own identity independent of others it is followed by future Generations of what it means to be a citizen of that nation. Australia has been a nation that has had a more recent aggressive history of racism than the US and up to a few decades ago encouraged only white migration to it's land therefore most settlers in the 20th century came from Britain. While this has now changed you can start to see how Australia is moving further away from Britain culturally and is much more diverse. They will pursue their own identity soon enough. New Zealand on the other hand still feels an attachment to Britain however and embarrassingly rejected any motion for their own flag showing the world they weren't ready to stand on their own to feet but rather to be under the umbrella of British influence. This will change in time especially as settlers from all across Europe, China and South Africa redefine what New Zealand culture is
The USA had a whole series of racist immigration acts as well, even to the extent it barred or severely restricted southern European immigrants for a good portion of the 20th century, (Which partly explains why so many Italians and Greeks moved to Australia and Canada at the end of WW2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

The reality is that Asian and (Free) Immigration from Africa are just as new to the USA as they are in Australia. A fact that seems to be often overlooked on this forum.

Of course yes the USA fought a war against Britain, and only a small number of US states were British colonies before independence, it also shares a long border with Mexico, which has had a lot of influence as well on the country as well.
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Old 11-04-2017, 08:08 PM
 
902 posts, read 543,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
The reality is that Asian and (Free) Immigration from Africa are just as new to the USA as they are in Australia. A fact that seems to be often overlooked on this forum.
.
Exactly. And most posters from outside Aus also seem totally unaware that the Chinese were actually one of the first ethnic groups here. For example, Melbourne was founded in the mid 1830s, and Chinatown in that city traces its history back to about 1850 - its the oldest continually inhabited Chinese 'settlement' in a western country. They also seem totally unaware of the extent of Asian immigration to Australia the latter part of the 1800's when the then booming north had a substantial Asian population.

I suspect some wouldn't even question how towns like Heidleberg, Hermannsberg or even Subiaco got their names.......

Last edited by Bakery Hill; 11-04-2017 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 11-04-2017, 08:35 PM
 
17 posts, read 8,426 times
Reputation: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
Really? Ask the Indigenous people of Australia how they feel about the achievements, the maturity and the pride of white supremacy under the banner of the British ensign.

In answer to the question, yes, I believe that Australia (and probably New Zealand) remains very immature as a nation. It will remain 'British' because Prince William, his wife Catherine, young son George, and young daughter Charlotte (and another damned 'royal' on the way) are, ahem ... 'cute'. Australians still love their 'royals'. They become giddy with excitement whenever these 'royal icons' visit the country and therefore allegiance to the monarchy (and the flag portraying the British ensign) is strengthened.

We would become a Republic tomorrow if I had anything to do with it and the flag would be changed to reflect this.
Couldn't agree more
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Old 11-04-2017, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
174 posts, read 94,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
The USA had a whole series of racist immigration acts as well, even to the extent it barred or severely restricted southern European immigrants for a good portion of the 20th century, (Which partly explains why so many Italians and Greeks moved to Australia and Canada at the end of WW2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

The reality is that Asian and (Free) Immigration from Africa are just as new to the USA as they are in Australia. A fact that seems to be often overlooked on this forum.

Of course yes the USA fought a war against Britain, and only a small number of US states were British colonies before independence, it also shares a long border with Mexico, which has had a lot of influence as well on the country as well.
Yes the USA has a history of much racism aswell but millions of Africans were brought over as slaves to the US centuries ago and with the migration from other nations such as Ireland, Spain, Italy, Germany etc helped define the America identity. In Australia and New Zealand migration from such a diversity of nations didn't happen until much recently which is why they still cling on to a colonial identity. This will change as a growing population of people who live in New Zealand and Australia will feel no connection to Britain and therefore create their own identity and flag
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Old 11-04-2017, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Brisbane
3,358 posts, read 5,188,930 times
Reputation: 2694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
Yes the USA has a history of much racism aswell but millions of Africans were brought over as slaves to the US centuries ago and with the migration from other nations such as Ireland, Spain, Italy, Germany etc helped define the America identity. In Australia and New Zealand migration from such a diversity of nations didn't happen until much recently which is why they still cling on to a colonial identity. This will change as a growing population of people who live in New Zealand and Australia will feel no connection to Britain and therefore create their own identity and flag
Agreed, however Australia has never had a policy to keep mainland europeans out, which is what your previous post seem to indcate. The fact that is australia was just not a desirable destination for mailand Europeans as the USA during the 19th century.
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:55 PM
 
902 posts, read 543,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
In Australia and New Zealand migration from such a diversity of nations didn't happen until much recently which is why they still cling on to a colonial identity. This will change as a growing population of people who live in New Zealand and Australia will feel no connection to Britain and therefore create their own identity and flag
By the time large-scale immigration from mainland Europe to the USA began, the US itself was a comparatively old country with a large established population. Settlement of Australia by non-indigenous peoples really only began in any numbers around 1830, and by 1850 more than a quarter of arrivals were from outside Britain and Ireland. So Australia was never essentially a 'British' nation ethnically, unless you consider Irish Catholics from southern Ireland to be "British" - which would be pretty ironic given the events of the 1800s in that country and why most Irish came to, our ended up in, Australia.

Have you spent much time in Australia?
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Old 11-04-2017, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Sydney Australia
597 posts, read 303,790 times
Reputation: 872
I completely disagree that Australians get "Giddy with excitement" whenever there are royal visitors. The media may report the visit and a few people follow it. Whereas fifty years ago royal visits were major events and did indeed attract enormous crowds. Those days are long past.
Personally I could not care whether people think Australia is an immature country though it is an interesting question.
I am old enough and have travelled enough to realise that people in most other countries know very little about Australia and care very little about it. Much less New Zealand.
By nearly all measures both countries are successful nations which have overcome, in the first instance, having been a convict settlement and in both cases having had huge issues with distance from almost anywhere.
When I was in Argentina I was surprised at some of the similarities with that country and Australia. Around 1900 both were among the wealthiest countries in the world. At the present time, Australia still is but the same cannot be said for Argentina. I think many of us believe that our history is worth remembering even though, like that of all counties, it has its dark side.
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Old 11-05-2017, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
15,913 posts, read 12,477,097 times
Reputation: 5069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
The big difference between the US and Australia/New Zealand is that the US no longer simply sees itself as a colony nation and feels no attachment to Britain, this has been the case for the last few centuries, this is partly due to settlers from all across the world who called the US home and who outnumbered British settlers and thus culturally is in no way similar to Britain. The USA defined it's own identity and once a nation defines it's own identity independent of others it is followed by future Generations of what it means to be a citizen of that nation. Australia has been a nation that has had a more recent aggressive history of racism than the US and up to a few decades ago encouraged only white migration to it's land therefore most settlers in the 20th century came from Britain. While this has now changed you can start to see how Australia is moving further away from Britain culturally and is much more diverse. They will pursue their own identity soon enough. New Zealand on the other hand still feels an attachment to Britain however and embarrassingly rejected any motion for their own flag showing the world they weren't ready to stand on their own to feet but rather to be under the umbrella of British influence. This will change in time especially as settlers from all across Europe, China and South Africa redefine what New Zealand culture is
I think the flag referendum result had nothing to do with standing on two feet, and very little to do with identity.

For me, i choose to keep the current flag, because the whole referendum, was really not something the was indicative of a mood of change, but just the personnel agenda of a PM who wanted to earn himself a footnote in history.

Could you explain how NZ being under the umbrella of British influence, manifests itself?.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Sydney Australia
597 posts, read 303,790 times
Reputation: 872
Paddy,
AUstralia does have its own identity already. Ever since Federation in 1901 we have steered our own course. Our parliamentary system does not mirror the British but is a hybrid of the British and American systems, designed to suit our circumstances. Australia and I think New Zealand were amongst the very first countries to have formal social welfare such as aged pensions, among the first to give women the vote much earlier than either the US or U.K. Australia, despite its massive contribution to World War 1, twice voted against the compulsory conscription that the British were calling for. This was then a nation less than twenty years old. In WW2, Prime Minister Curtin completely defied Churchill in bring home the troops which were needed here.
Since 1950, the largest group of migrants have been British but they have not formed more than 50% of the intake. Actually until very recently, NZ have formed a large group.
I am partly descended from German and French immigrants who arrived in Australia in the 1850s as well as from three convicts, one of whom was Irish.
Our health care system is quite different to the British, we have to line up at Heathrow in the foreigners' line, we have a targeted immigration system that these days gives no preference to anyone British, we long ago introduced our own anthem. Part of the reason the republic was voted down was that people did not like the new model and others thought it would all be a waste of money.
I do not regard having historical ties to another country which have evolved and changed, to be a sign of lack of identity or immaturity.
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:28 PM
 
902 posts, read 543,554 times
Reputation: 536
Even in the pre federation era the states were pretty much independent nations, which is why as far back as the mid 1850s their system of government was more democratic than the U.K. has even today - fully elected legislatures acting in accordance with written constitutions . It was pressure from then state governments that largely ended transportation, while South Australia was one of the very first jurisdictions to grant women the vote in 1894.
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