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Wait.... Stralia has no same sex marriage. Man, I should have left America then. BTW, I would vote No.
I haven't got a clue what the above post is all about. Australia HAS voted FOR same-sex marriage and now it simply (?) needs to be legislated into law. BTW, your voting 'No' to same-sex marriage would be too late, so no point telling us how you would vote now.
Could you explain how I redefined objectivity as I don't feel i have and If i did that wasn't my intention. Also religion and morality are of course intertwined but it would be ridiculous to say they are the same, religion or more correctly theism for that matter gives morality true meaning. Morality cannot give itself true meaning therefore cannot be the same as religion. Morality is spawned from the theistic worldview. I am applying naturalism because that is the worldview most atheists hold and many on this forum hold and that is what I'm debating, there are atheists who don't know what they believe and for them debates like this are irrelevant. Of course you can keep stumbling your way through moral issues but don't tell a rapist or child molester they can't do the same 😉
As a catholic,you should be very aware that having a faith based morality, means nothing when it comes to rape, or child abuse -empathy is what is missing, not moral certainty.
Your church even puts particular importance on forgiveness, because it understands that moral certainty doesn't mean anything -it's what one does that counts.
As a catholic,you should be very aware that having a faith based morality, means nothing when it comes to rape, or child abuse -empathy is what is missing, not moral certainty.
Your church even puts particular importance on forgiveness, because it understands that moral certainty doesn't mean anything -it's what one does that counts.
Absolutely and i hoped by my comments didn't dispute that. What one does in relation to objective morality is either truly good or truly evil. If morality is relative then there is no such thing as good and evil. Morality of course isn't always certain that one will behave this way because as Oscar Wilde wrote "i can resist everything but temptation". We will fall at times but recognizing we have fallen is the first step in getting up. If we don't think we have even done wrong then we will roll along in the mud with not a care in the world, just meaningless existence which is what is true if the naturalist worldview is true.
Becoming a better man or women means we have an idea of what standard we should aim for and achieve, genuinely trying to achieve this is what all Catholics are called to do as it brings us in closer relationship with God and each other and fulfills us.
Absolutely and i hoped by my comments didn't dispute that. What one does in relation to objective morality is either truly good or truly evil. If morality is relative then there is no such thing as good and evil. Morality of course isn't always certain that one will behave this way because as Oscar Wilde wrote "i can resist everything but temptation". We will fall at times but recognizing we have fallen is the first step in getting up. If we don't think we have even done wrong then we will roll along in the mud with not a care in the world, just meaningless existence which is what is true if the naturalist worldview is true.
Becoming a better man or women means we have an idea of what standard we should aim for and achieve, genuinely trying to achieve this is what all Catholics are called to do as it brings us in closer relationship with God and each other and fulfills us.
You almost make the theist child rapist, sound as though they are on some noble quest. I guess that matches your view that people who want to marry their same sex partner, are are shallow airheads , set to destroy humanity.
I don't particularly espouse naturalistic thinking, but what makes you think these people see existence as meaningless?
You almost make the theist child rapist, sound as though they are on some noble quest. I guess that matches your view that people who want to marry their same sex partner, are are shallow airheads , set to destroy humanity.
I don't particularly espouse naturalistic thinking, but what makes you think these people see existence as meaningless?
Explain how I do that as your misunderstanding me if that's the case? That is not my view, your attacking a straw man here to make any case you make more valid. I dont agree with homosexuality behaviour as being natural because quite frankly it isn't based on the two most disputed world views in the world, Theism and naturalism. Also a naturalist must see existence as meaningless because that is the TRUTH based on their worldview. If they say they have meaning and deny the TRUTH of naturalism they are no longer naturalist, no different that someone who claims to be Christian but denies the divinity of Christ
Explain how I do that as your misunderstanding me if that's the case? That is not my view, your attacking a straw man here to make any case you make more valid. I dont agree with homosexuality behaviour as being natural because quite frankly it isn't based on the two most disputed world views in the world, Theism and naturalism. Also a naturalist must see existence as meaningless because that is the TRUTH based on their worldview. If they say they have meaning and deny the TRUTH of naturalism they are no longer naturalist, no different that someone who claims to be Christian but denies the divinity of Christ
The straw man was you talking about rapists/child molesters acting because they don't have the supposedly clear moral compass of theists.
What's the big deal about naturalism? -- atheism isn't a religion, and atheists aren't required to follow any particular philosophy.
The straw man was you talking about rapists/child molesters acting because they don't have the supposedly clear moral compass of theists.
What's the big deal about naturalism? -- atheism isn't a religion, and atheists aren't required to follow any particular philosophy.
My point with that was if objective morality isn't true and morality is simply a made up concept relative to what we choose then all action, ALL action including child molestation and rape, killing for pleasure, love, kindness etc are all on a level playing. If you follow this belief then who are you to say someone who truly right or wrong, by what standard are you judging them?
Yes of course Atheists aren't required to follow any philosophy but all humans live according to a philosophical world-view, whether it be the worldview on theism, deism, naturalism or the world-view of i don't give a crap about anything, we all live a certain way in which we justify in our minds. When you said you live in a way where you stumble through morality in life deciding what is right and wrong that in and of itself describes your philosophy which you follow. Where logic comes in to play however is that we must prove our philosophical worldview to be true especially if we believe it should be binding on anyone. I could say for example i don't believe in the law of gravity, just because science proves it is true doesn't mean i have to believe it, this would be irrational and a rejection of reality so in order for us to explore reality we must aim to find out the truth of it and philosophy aswell as science helps us do that. So should Atheists follow naturalism? Well by logic they should if they want to be consistent with their view on reality and that is that all we are is a collection of cells spawned from evolution. Deny this and follow a personally made up philosophy and they simple deny their own reality. I think people who have this mindset who try and push forward great social change are the most dangerous because they can't rationally explain what they are doing, they simply do it for their own sake whether it is to make them feel pleasure or satisfaction.
Explain how I do that as your misunderstanding me if that's the case? That is not my view, your attacking a straw man here to make any case you make more valid. I dont agree with homosexuality behaviour as being natural because quite frankly it isn't based on the two most disputed world views in the world, Theism and naturalism. Also a naturalist must see existence as meaningless because that is the TRUTH based on their worldview. If they say they have meaning and deny the TRUTH of naturalism they are no longer naturalist, no different that someone who claims to be Christian but denies the divinity of Christ
I didn't think we Americans are smarter than Aussies (with whom I fought with in Vietnam), but this post has me rethinking that---as a Christian, no less.
There are quite a number of animal, fish, bird, and insect species which have a "natural" homosexual element. Some of those relationships have even been proven to benefit their species.
From a 2009 National Geographic article:
Same-sex Behavior Common Across Animal Species, Review Finds
Posted by David Maxwell Braun of National Geographic Society on June 16, 2009
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Same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species, from worms to frogs to birds, according to a review of existing research, funded by the University of California, Riverside.
“It’s clear that same-sex sexual behavior extends far beyond the well-known examples that dominate both the scientific and popular literature: for example, bonobos, dolphins, penguins and fruit flies,” said Nathan Bailey, the first author of the review paper and a postdoctoral researcher in the Department of Biology at UC Riverside, CA
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I guess a whole lot of God's creation, that He called "good" are sinning and not knowing it?
I didn't think we Americans are smarter than Aussies (with whom I fought with in Vietnam), but this post has me rethinking that---as a Christian, no less.
Paddy234 doesn't seem to be an Aussie anyway; in fact he's often displayed a pretty low level of understanding of Australia in some of his posts.
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